Best 16mm Cameras

J

Joe Calabrese

Well-known member
Hey all,

I'm looking at getting a 16mm film camera. Nothing too complicated, just something I can begin learning to use film with. I would rather not get a spring wound camera. I was looking at some used Arriflex 16BL cameras and waiting for the prices to drop, but now I'm not sure.

The 400 foot reels are not necessary. I looked at the K3 as well, but heard that they were hit or miss and are spring driven camera.

My target budget was under $1,000 USD.

Thanks,
Joe
 
I just picked up a K-3. You can get one for about 150-200 bucks with the shoulder harness, grip and lense.

The nice thing about the K-3 is that there are still so many companies who deal with its parts and functionality (e.g. you can still get them converted to S16mm, etc. And if something breaks you can probably find a place to repair it).

The old 16mm cams were all hand crank so, IMO, it helped them stay stronger longer. Think about a 1950s music box vs. a 1980s Lite Bright. ;)

Also, from my understanding, the K-3 can use still cam lenses because of it's C-mount.

I JUST purchased one myself (after getting advice from others here), but I should be receiving it in a few days.

Good ebaying!

FYI I don't think there's a better time to be venturing into 16mm. You can get your rolls developed at about 12 cents per foot (400 ft = about ten minutes). And then a digital transfer to 1080p is about the same. Considering how vastly superior (from an artistic standpoint) 16mm is to 90% of digital stuff, and the cost of a good 35mm digi film set-up with large enough chip for shallow DOF and low light situations, film is looking pretty awesome once again!
 
If you can find a used Arriflex 16 BL for under a $1000.00 buy it, though good luck with that. It is a wonderful camera. Though it is a little heavy. I have used one and it is rock solild and built like a tank. It has crystal sync, pin registration and is relatively quite. With a zoom lens blimp, you still might want to add an additional soft blimp if shooting in close quarters indoors. Most the used packages I have seen are going for $1500 and up.

In the under $1000.00 market, you may want to look for a used Arri S, ST or M camera. The Arris are rock solid cameras. They actually may be hard to find in this price range, but I have seen packages that were available for under $1000.00 (eBay); I would keep my eyes open. There are also available the Canon Scoopic, which is a very good camera and are going for some good prices. The Scoopic has a fixed lens, which can be a down side, but I have worked with one of these and they are very pleasant to use and make very good images. Also available in this price range is the Beaulieu R-16. This camera has interchangeable lenses (C-mount) and a very nice form factor, for hand holding. I have never worked with one, but folks I know that have used them seem to like them.

There is also the Bolex line of cameras and I know that you said that you wanted to avoid the spring wound cameras, but for under a $grand, it is really hard to beat a good Bolex H-16 reflex camera. I have a Bolex H-16 Rex 5, with a 15-85mm reflex zoom lens and a MST motor. The MST motor is a constant speed (24 fps) motor, that bolts onto the side of the camera and converts the camera into an electric drive. It is a wonderful camera. I once shot a project with an Arri 16 SR II, with a set of Zeiss primes and we were able to intercut pick up shots, done with my Bolex that were indistinguishable from the SR II shots. Now this project was finished on film and projected on a large screen at a film festival in Detroit. The shots made with the Bolex where, again, indistinguishable from the shots made with the SR II.

If you are looking for a good 16mm camera for under $1000.00, I just can not help but recommend getting a Bolex. I would look for a Rex 4 or a Rex 5. The latter Rex 4s and all of the Rex 5s (I think) are suitable for the adaptation of electric motors. You will need to do a Google search on the Rex 4s about that. Besides, using the spring wound motor, while a shock to most folks used to long takes with a video camera, isn't really that big of a deal. After a while, you get used to it.

One thing to watch out for with the Bolex cameras is light leaks around the film door and the internal filter. I always tape down the door and filter with black camera tape to avoid that.

I don't know anything about the Russian camera, sorry.

Good luck.
 
stephenmick said:
I used a Canon Scoopic back when I was a film student. We also used the Bolex cameras, and I had good experiences with both.
(Here's a Bolex EBM…http://austin.craigslist.org/pho/1464776321.html)

But the best 16mm camera I used back then was a CP-16R. It's a beast of a camera, but I believe you can still find them around.
(Like this… http://austin.craigslist.org/pho/1491786794.html)
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Yeah, that CP-16 R, is a great camera. Just don't expect to find one for under a $ grand... or if you do... snatch that f*cker up!!!. There are plenty around in the $2500.00 range. Of the CP cameras, my fav is the 16 GSMO (called the Gizmo). The one I worked with was so quite, that even with my ear against it, shooting, I could not tell it was running. I had to pull my eye from the view finder to see that the frame counter was running to call, "Speed". Nice camera.

My favorite 16mm cameras are the Arri SR cameras, without a doubt. I have been watching them for the prices to come down and they are. I got too much video upgrading to do this year ('puter, camera, light kit), to be buying another film camera, but after that, I am definitely looking in to getting an Arri SR. What I want is an Arri SR III, Super 16mm, with batteries, two mags, extension eyepiece, Video tap, and zoom lens. I am hoping that I can get one for around $10 grand. I keep lighting candles!!!
 
Chamber005 said:
I missed the part where you were wanting electric.

This is my first time delving into 16mm so I'm totally fine with something that only allows me to shoot for 30 seconds at a rip. Not looking for any takes longer than that.

But yeah, the Scoopic and the K-3s seem to be the standard for film students.

And these look beautiful:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOLEX-REX-5-H16...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item3a54f68f70
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Yeah, that is a sweet looking camera packag, just one thing though. That mag set up needs to be driven by an electric motor, which I don't see as part of the package. It is still a good price, but to use it with the mag, you would need to pick up a camera drive electric motoer and a touge motor for the mag. They are available, but would add a good bit to the package.
 
You might be able to find an Arri S or Arri SB for just under $1000 including a decent lens. Those are MOS cameras, but they are excellent and very durable.

Also, if you wait long enough you might be able to pick up a Arri 16 BL or CP-16 for around $1200-$1400 on E-bay. I was going to sell my BL, but my motor burnt out and I have to put another $600 into it to get it in selling condition. So I can't sell it for less than $1000.

The Arri and CP cameras have a registration pin, which gives you a much steadier image vs. Bolex or Canon Scoopic cameras.

The problem with buying on E-bay is that often, you don't know what you're getting exactly. I purchased an Arri SR2 body a few years ago for only $3500 on Ebay. At the time I thought I was getting a deal, and I guess it was in a way.

But I when I brought it in for servicing, they pointed out all sorts of problems with it and I ended up putting an additional $2500 into it. Not chump change for a service call, so I ended up paying $6000 for an SR2 which was what it goes for anyways from places like Visual Products and the like. And I could have saved myself the hassle of getting it serviced.

Sometimes you end up with terrific deals from Ebay, but for complicated machines like precision film cameras, I've learned my lesson the hard way and will never buy something like an SR from Ebay again.
 
Barry_Green said:
Gospel. And that could apply to most any other low-budget product too. Treat it as what it is, not what you wish it was.
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I'm not sure how anyone would see it any different. I'd think people would look at the K-3 the way they look at the HVX200 in terms of how it compares to professional HD cams.

The K-3, like the HVX200, is something usable -- if you want to shoot film on something that costs under a couple hundred bucks, I think, like the HVX200, you'll be getting what you're paying for.

I'm personally super excited about finally graduating to using film in some of my stuff. I think digital is a great learning tool and has a place in the storytelling process, but film is film. In the end I'd rather watch something scenic created on a less-than-stellar film camera than watch the same thing on a prosumer HD cam, IMO.

Not necessarily in line with the OP, just encouraging his choice to work with film overall. Whether it's a K-3, Arri, Bolex Rex, CP-16R, you'll be shooting film. If you can't afford the more expensive cams right now, it's not a big deal.
 
But how many people try to convert the K-3 to Super16, or put a crystal motor on it, etc... that effort would be so much better spent in just buying a better camera in the first place. A CP16/R, for example.

The K-3 is great for what it is, but what it is is a micro-cost, specious-quality, spring-wound 16mm camera. If you get a good one, it's well worth the cost.
 
Barry_Green said:
But how many people try to convert the K-3 to Super16, or put a crystal motor on it, etc... that effort would be so much better spent in just buying a better camera in the first place. A CP16/R, for example.

The K-3 is great for what it is, but what it is is a micro-cost, specious-quality, spring-wound 16mm camera. If you get a good one, it's well worth the cost.
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Yeah, personally I would never be eager to change a 16mm cam to a S16mm. I've seen some pretty sweet things done with specific kinds of lenses to help the K-3 get closer to a 16/15:9 ratio. It kind of widens the picture, but could be a better alternative to cropping (as I've heard that you lose on about 25% of the resolution when you crop and expand to HD parameters).

Found another Bolex that sounds and looks clean. Mucho lenses. It's only a 3, though. Not sure how/if that's way inferior to the 4 and 5 that was listed as options earlier.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130348551512&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Here's a 5 for a bit more..

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOLEX-REX-5-H16...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item3a54f68f70

And here's the only CP-16R that I'm seeing by itself. Seems pricey for "as-is" and no lenses. But I'm not sure what they're supposed to cost, so...

http://cgi.ebay.com/CP-16R-CINEMA-P...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item27ad76edf6
 
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Ted Spencer said:
Love the avatar, David. Looks like *everybody* wants to direct these days, huh?
:shocked:
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Thanks, I call it "Vilmos Squirrel" I stole it from a post over on Reduser... it cracks me up....

I figured to caption it, with the quote, "Somebody wake that fu*ker Thumper up! This is a take!"
 
Matty_g said:
I just got an Aaton XTR w/ pl mount for 2500. Prices on s16 cameras are dropping like a rock.
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I friend of mine sent me a link to a production house that had an XTR for sale at about that price. You are right the cost of Super 16 cameras is coming way down and they are all over. I have also noted that, while the cameras are everywhere, and getting cheaper, nobody seems to be selling Super 16mm lenses, or if they do, they are still going for relatively high prices. I wonder if folks are holding onto them in anticipation of the Scarlet 2/3" release?
 
Chamber005 said:
And here's the only CP-16R that I'm seeing by itself. Seems pricey for "as-is" and no lenses. But I'm not sure what they're supposed to cost, so...

http://cgi.ebay.com/CP-16R-CINEMA-P...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item27ad76edf6
Click to expand...
Pah. I'll sell you my CP16/R right now, for $1500. It's got the case, multiple magazines, and a Zeiss 10-100 zoom lens. It's got multiple gears so you can get crystal at 23.976 or at 29.97, which (when using the 30p gearset) means you also get a maximum overcrank speed of 45fps. I've got batteries, the AC adapter, all sorts of stuff for it. It's a great kit, with one big problem -- when moving across country, the viewfinder got broken. You'd have to find a new VF.

Other than that, it's the most complete CP kit you'll find, I spent a long time piecing it together, cherry-picking the best stuff...

Of course, that one you linked to doesn't have a viewfinder either... maybe I should raise my price... :)
 
Barry_Green said:
Pah. I'll sell you my CP16/R right now, for $1500. It's got the case, multiple magazines, and a Zeiss 10-100 zoom lens. It's got multiple gears so you can get crystal at 23.976 or at 29.97, which (when using the 30p gearset) means you also get a maximum overcrank speed of 45fps. I've got batteries, the AC adapter, all sorts of stuff for it. It's a great kit, with one big problem -- when moving across country, the viewfinder got broken. You'd have to find a new VF.

Other than that, it's the most complete CP kit you'll find, I spent a long time piecing it together, cherry-picking the best stuff...

Of course, that one you linked to doesn't have a viewfinder either... maybe I should raise my price... :)
Click to expand...


So I had another 16mm thread going, but since I'm hanging moreso in this one (and the OP might be interested as well), what's the deal with lenses and 16mm? Like I said, I'm messing the with K-3 (unlike the nicer stuff being talked about here). I see lenses for these cams for really cheap (like 50-100 bucks). Is that normal? When you buy lenses are you getting 16mm motion picture specific lenses or can you use still cam lenses (as someone had mentioned in the other thread)?

COMPLETE noob in regards to motion film.
 
Check out German Ebay for Arri - we are not actually knee deep in them, but you get nice under 1000 Euro deals any week.

Good Luck, Frank
 
The K-3 can take still camera lenses. Cheap glass is available, but not wide glass. The widest you normally will see in still cameras is down to around 14mm, which isn't that much wider than the stock zoom lens.

Other cameras use c-mount, and there are plentiful c-mount lenses out there that were designed for cinema use.
 
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