Beginner Sound Setup

There are two competing things you have to deal with. One is you don't want to spend a bunch of cash. There are a lot of things you can do on the cheap that are not "as good" as the "real" thing but are good enough for now. The painters pole boom is a good example. I used to make my own wind protection. They looked a bit funky (though not bad) and they worked fine. I used them on a number of high budget films (for FX recording, don't think it would have passed muster on the set). So depending on how handy you are you can save a bunch if you don't have to show up with "professional" name brands on your gear.

I built the first two mixers I owned. If you can solder and work your way through instructions you can build things like preamps and mixers yourself, and have high quality.

You can't build a recorder though or a mic (actually you can build a mic (sort of) but...) so those are things you need to buy.

Second you want to have stuff that will not be junk as you get better. All of the micro recorders are decent. They are way better than the options low budget filmmakers were using not long ago. The weakest part is the interface and the analog sections. You can't do anything about the interface but you can get a mixer or preamp to solve the analog issues. BUT you will probably be fine just using the built in ones, none of them are "bad". And they will be of use to pick up FX recordings etc when you retire it for a better recorder.

As a filmmaker you are better off hiring a sound person than buying stuff. But as a student you will learn more with your own stuff.

In your shoes I would probably recommend getting one of the sub $200 recorders (that can provide XLR and Phantom power), you don't need the AC adapter except if you want to do some "studio" work. It won't do you much good in the field.

I would look at one of the CAD cardioid mics. They are cheap, good quality, not much handling noise and you could bury one in foam with some fake fur wrapped around it for very little. The cardioid is a bit wide but that will be a help with spotty booming. And it's a good FX mic.

Get some decent headphones and a painters pole and you are ready to experiment.

The above is not a "professional" set up but should work well for what you are describing doing and is not a lot of cash.

After playing with it for a few shoots you will have a much better idea of what you want to upgrade.

I recorded FX on a number of $30+ mil. features with a set up not all that different from above. I upgraded as a went along and ended up with a very nice setup, because I knew what I wanted - from the experience of using what I had.
 
TheDingo, the Sound Devices MixPre is good, but it has many features that I don't need.

...Are you sure about that?

- It has mic pre-amps that are better than any recorder under $1,000 ( 60+ dB of signal boost, with a clean 110 dB dynamic range )
- It has a 2-stage limiter circuit, which makes it very very difficult to clip your audio ( most portable recorders have crude limiters in comparison )
- It will supply phantom power to 2 mics for an entire day with just 4 AA batteries ( most of the portable recorders will barely power 2 mics for one hour on 4 AA batteries )
- It has a 1 kHz tone generator, which enables you to calibrate any camera or recorder you connect to the mixer
- It has a powerful headphone amp, so you hear absolutely everything being recorded ( most portable recorders have weak headphone amps compared to the MixPre )
- It's built like a tank, so it will stand up over years of use, and you will be able to sell it and get most of your investment back ( just keep it in a case so it stays clean )

Yeah, they would be better in the long run, but I don't know if I'd have the money to buy that and a $400 recorder

I would buy a $200 recorder like the Tascam DR-40, because the Sound Devices MixPre is doing all of the heavy lifting, the recorder just has to record clean LINE level audio.

Know of a recorder that has good pre-amps (instead of a recorder with an external preamp) and can be bought used for cheap on ebay?

Nothing under $1,000 with pre-amps like the Sound Devices MixPre. The Edirol R-44 would be my first choice if I couldn't use a proper mixer, but this is an $1,100 recorder, and it eats batteries for lunch.
 
Okay, so definitely don't go spending a lot of money I don't have. Don't get an expensive preamp. The Sounds Devices MixPre-D is new, so I'm guessing you're not talking about that. I saw the older one on Ebay for $350, which with the DR-40 ($175 new), wouldn't be too bad. As for the mic, skip the Oktava and instead get a cheaper cardioid one. Either make or buy the accessories cheap. Okay, that's what I've gotten out of all of this. What mic would suit my plans, as mentioned before? Guess it wouldn't have to be phantom powered. Still want XLR though. And it needs to be a mic that I will not get rid of really quickly in the future.
 
If you're going to get devices that can provide phantom power (as both the MixPre and the DR-40 can), then there's no reason not to get a mic that requires it. I certainly am not qualified to recommend a specific mic; I have only ever used the Oktava, and although I am happy with it I can't compare it to anything.

In general, though, I understand that condenser mics are more sensitive than dynamic mics. Electret condensers don't last as long as regular condensers. So if you need the sensitivity, which you probably will for making films, you're probably best off with a mic that needs phantom power. (Or, equivalently, one that has its own battery.)
 
Okay, so definitely don't go spending a lot of money I don't have.

...Which is why I was suggesting a USED MixPre Mixer like this one: JW SoundGroup Classified : MixPre for $400 + Shipping

You should also check out the used gear at Trew Audio Consignment Gear : Mixers, as they often have good deals on used pro gear. ( like the Sure FP mixers )

A good mixer will get you farther than just about any other low cost piece of audio gear, and then it's easy to upgrade your mics or upgrade your recorder, as a good mixer won't be holding you back from an audio perspective.

I bought my Sound Devices MixPre mixer brand new four years ago for $650+tax, and then sold it this July for $510. ( I bought a brand new MixPre-D from the DvxUser classifieds for $650, which saved me about $200 over buying it from TrewAudio with tax )

As for the mic, skip the Oktava and instead get a cheaper cardioid one

Look for the Audio Technica 3031 cardioid "pencil" mic. I bought a pair of these mics on sale for $300 when they were being discontinued. I have seen this mic selling used in perfect shape for $100.

Review of the Audio Technica AT3031

The Old B&H Photo Page on the AT3031 Mic

AT3031 for $90 in Toronto

AT3031 for $100 on eBay
 
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@iain.bason It'd be nice to have phantom power, whether or not I have it currently in one of my mics. It's definitely something I'll probably do. Gonna look at the mic Dingo suggested first.

@Dingo I had already been looking at the trew audio page you posted. There was mostly brands I've never heard of, which I'd be uncomfortable to buy, when I could just as easily buy one that everyone has tested and loved. I'll use it for future purchases, guaranteed. I looked at the MixPre and it seemed really good. One thing that caught my eye was that it had 15v phantom power instead of 12v. I know I probably wouldn't need 12v, but why did they change it to 12v? Were mics being overpowered?

I love how I'm starting after all the crappy-but-expensive equipment has been discontinued, and I'm able to buy amazing equipment cheaply. Ah, technological advancement, I love it.

Hmm, I'll look at that mic. How does the quality compare to the newer ones with the same price or a little more?
 
I had already been looking at the trew audio page you posted. There was mostly brands I've never heard of, which I'd be uncomfortable to buy, when I could just as easily buy one that everyone has tested and loved.

The Sure FP24 is a rebranded MixPre mixer ( they are identical ), but the MixPre branded model would be easier to sell used because of the Sound Devices name.

One thing that caught my eye was that it had 15v phantom power instead of 12v. I know I probably wouldn't need 12v, but why did they change it to 12v? Were mics being overpowered?

I have no idea why it's 15 volts instead of the usual 12 volts, but I don't think it matters. Most mics use 48 volts, and I doubt that supplying 15 volts to a 12 volt phantom mic will harm it.

I love how I'm starting after all the crappy-but-expensive equipment has been discontinued, and I'm able to buy amazing equipment cheaply. Ah, technological advancement, I love it.

I wouldn't call it crappy. You are looking at outdated but very high quality gear, that would be much more expensive if the manufacturer hadn't upgraded to a new model.

The old MixPre is a killer "starter" mixer, that is really only outshone by the new MixPre-D.

The old AT3031 is a killer "starter" mic, that I think you will have a very tough time separating it from mics costing up to $300 - $400.

My only issue with buying used gear is that it must look like it's almost new, then I know that the person took care of it. I am a big believer in keeping everything in proper cases, so it stays clean, looks good, and is easy to sell used. ( I pack my Lowel tungsten lights in a padded Pelican case, and thus they do not look like they are 5 years old. )

Hmm, I'll look at that mic. How does the quality compare to the newer ones with the same price or a little more?

The replacement mic from Audio Technica ( AT4021 ) sells for $349 brand new. I own an Audio Technica 4053a hyper-cardioid mic which sells for $599 ( which is the same as the AT4053b mic, but the A model has nasty lead-solder connections, where the B model has something more environmentally friendly ), and the AT3031 cardioid mic sounds fairly close in overall audio performance to the $599 mic. From my experience, you won't find anything better brand new under $250, so at $100 used it's a steal.
 
TheDingo, the Sound Devices MixPre is good, but it has many features that I don't need. Yeah, they would be better in the long run, but I don't know if I'd have the money to buy that and a $400 recorder. Know of a recorder that has good pre-amps (instead of a recorder with an external preamp) and can be bought used for cheap on ebay?
I can't think of any features the MixPre or the now current MixPre-D has that aren't important when recording either dialog or music so I'm really curious what features it has that you think you don't need.
 
@TheDingo, I was talking about how the equipment that people bought 10 years ago would be considered terrible to present-day equipment. A $100 recorder would have been so much more back then. I wasn't hating on discontinued items.

I'll definitely have to look into that mic, because you are making it sound awesome (for a starter, of course)!

@Steve Okay, maybe most of the features are needed, but I'm kinda new to preamps in general, if you haven't noticed, so I guess I just assumed that.

EDIT: Would switching to the DR-100 or DR-680 later on really make much of a difference with this preamp?
 
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Would switching to the DR-100 or DR-680 later on really make much of a difference with this preamp?

Right now I can't say for sure, because I haven't tested the DR-40 pre-amps, but my guess is that you won't notice ANY difference when recording LINE level audio signal from the MixPre mixer. The MixPre is an outstanding low cost mixer, and pretty much any $200 recorder does a very good job with LINE level signal.

Generally with better audio gear you get a lower noise-floor, which can be very handy when you have to fix nasty audio screw-ups, like recording the audio 20 dB too low. With a low-noise recorder you can boost the bad recording by 20 dB, which raises the noise-floor by 20 dB, and if the recorder has an un-boosted noise floor of -80 dB ( or better ) you won't hear any hiss in your recording. ( the boosted noise floor is -60 dB ) It will fix the problem and everything still sounds great.

If the recorder was lower quality and had a noise floor of -68 dB ( like the Zoom H4n I've tested ), when you boost the recording by 20 dB, the boosted noise floor now sits at -48 dB, and the "hiss" is very noticeable if you have good ears. ( this is where people slam in a music track or environmental ambient track to try and hide the "hiss" of the boosted recording )

My guess is that the DR-40 will have a noise floor that is very close ( if not identical ) to the DR-100 MK2 when recording LINE level signal. ( the MixPre puts out LINE level signal )
 
Okay, sounds great! I think I have my basic setup down, with some great options to upgrade to in the future! Thanks a lot guys!
 
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