Beginner Sound Setup

iamlance

iamlance

Well-known member
Recently, I've been researching a ton of stuff dealing with recording. I'm going to do this with a T3i (probably) for short films with my friends, as well as some basic instrument/vocal recording. I originally thought I could just pick up a mic and be done, but it seems that I was very wrong. I've looked up different microphones, mic stands, shocks, booms, preamps, mixers, recorders, and a mouthful of other things. I've gathered plenty of different biased information about everything, on tons of different forums/sites, but that's the problem. It's all biased, which is good, as many of the people were professionals, but sometimes you just need the basics. What do you have to have to get sound. Not professional sound, but nice sound. The more I've looked around, it seems that there is always something that you have to have to even start. So, I need clarification on what I've found.

Take into account that my budget is very limited. Please don't just tell me there's no way without 1K+ equipment to begin. This isn't for professional use.


  • For a mic, I think I've settled on the Oktava-012a with a hypercardioid capsule. Later, I'll spend $50 to buy the regular cardioid capsule. Price: $245 (w/ hyper)
  • I'll need to buy a shock mount. I'll probably be getting the Rycote INV-6. Price: $62
  • A windjammer or windshield is a must, as the mics are usually incredibly sensitive to wind/vibrations. Price: $135 (shield) and/or $170 (jammer)
  • Booms. They can be expensive, depending on the features. Price: Basic ones cost like $150, going up to a grand. I'll stick with a $150 for now.
  • Recorder. The Tascam DR-40 seems to be better than the other ones for the price. It has what I need, and isn't $300+. Price: $175
Having an AC adapter for this seems like a good idea, as the mic uses Phantom Power 48V. LINK Price: $25
  • Phantom Power External Power Supply. These two were recommended: LINK and LINK I know there's probably better ones out there. Price: $50 - $ hundreds
  • Preamp. Seems I have to have this one to make the sound even worth listening to. The Tascam's preamp sucks I guess. This would eliminate the need for a phantom power external power supply, but it depends on the preamp. The MM-1 seems to be good. That's what I've been told at least. Price: $350+
  • Mixer. Used for making things like music, but I doubt I'll need one for now, with only 1 mic. LINK This JuicedLink one was rec'd many times. Also gets rid of a Phantom Ex Power Supply
Another JuicedLink product that was mentioned was this. I don't believe it has XLR input, so probably useless.
  • Audio Interface. Enables you to bring the music straight to your computer and easily mess with the sound. Good I guess, but will I need it?
  • Cables. XLR male-female. 25' would suffice for me. Price: $30, maybe a bit more.
  • Headphones. Heard the ATH-M50, the Sony 7506, and the Shure SRH440 were all good. Price: $100+
Studio Monitors seem to be really helpful, but are not a must.

This all comes out at a lot of money. What would the absolute basics end up costing?

Is all of this correct? Did I totally mess up on something? Like, what of this isn't completely necessary, and are the items/prices I listed good?

And yeah, I know that this is like a "HOLY CRAP!" amount of stuff to ask about.
 
This isn't for professional use.
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"Opinions are like a$$holes; everybody has one and they all stink."

You'll get vociferous opinions about which mic(s), recorder, etc. will do the job correctly when you start out on a budget. The problem, I have found, is the knowledge gap. There are numerous things that you don't know - signal flow, gain staging, boom/mic technique, etc. The biggest issue is that you will not be using the gear, you'll be handing it off to someone else. That person will probably have less knowledge than you, and your knowledge at this point is minimal. So.......

Your best bet is to try to find an up-and-coming production sound person. They will have audio knowledge and skills (and gear?) that surpasses your own, even if they are a beginner. After all, their entire focus (pardon the pun) will be on sound. It's the skills that are important, not the gear.

If you absolutely must buy gear, you really want to keep the cost down to the absolute minimum and your goal is to have fun, not be a professional filmmaker, perhaps the Rode VideoMic and a Tascam DR-07 are what you need. All you'll need after that are headphones, a boom-pole and wind protection.

When it comes to audio post, yes, you do need some passable speakers so you can accurately hear what you're doing. Some sound treatment for your listening environment would most definitely be a help as well.

If you want to record directly into your computer (VO, Foley, etc.), then yes, an interface of some kind would be a help, but not absolutely necessary. You'll have the Rode VM that can plug directly into the computers mic input, noisy as that input may be; this is just for fun, right?
 
I want to make it a bit more professional than that though. I'm not producing a film for a festival or anything, but I'd like to have the option if I wanted. Where I live, there are no "sound professionals" that I know of. I might be able to go to a small studio (I think I heard about one), but I'd have to talk to a few people first. I want to make a nice video, and sound can make or break the short films. Also, I'd like to get really good sound from a grand piano or guitar from some of my friends. So the crappy-passable sound I'd get from that isn't what I'm looking for.

Oh, and when I said I don't want it to be professional, I meant for now. I'm applying to FSU Film to graduate as a filmmaker. I know you usually don't buy your own equipment, and instead rent it, but I'd like to learn about the production of music as well on the side. Sorry I didn't really explain that too well beforehand.
 
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iamlance said:
Take into account that my budget is very limited. Please don't just tell me there's no way without 1K+ equipment to begin. This isn't for professional use.
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You have done a huge amount of work to come up with your list. Its interesting how others who like me have done quite a lot of research, and yet reach different conclusions.

Like many of your considerations the reality can be quickly swayed with just a little experience. I am not a long term pro but for instance, I've used a handful of boom poles and though I respect their cost, in most cases a painters pole can be must very economically be adapted for the same use and much less than $50. If I was going to work as a professional sound tech yes I would be expected to have a pro boom pole, but otherwise no. Unless you are physically weak and every ounce is really important, but the weight of the microphone, shock mount, and the dead cat is much more important in the weight consideration.

Personally I am not liking any of the sub $500 recorders (except the juicedlink RA/RM333). The main reason for me is I don't like added noise. You might have a great combo with the Tascam DR-40 and the MM-1 though, but an all-in-one may be less problematic. There is a really interesting review done a couple weeks ago on http://oliviatech.com/audio-recorder-comparison-digital-recorders-vs-preamps Personally I am probably buying the http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673541-REG/Tascam_DR_680_DR_680_8_Track_Portable_Field.html because its much more adapatable for about $150 more. Also I am planning on recording animals and insects which noise will impact the quality of sound I want to get very high quality as seen on http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm.

On the headphones I personally went with the http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002GZLY2/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 because of several considerations, but especially the noise isolation consideration. I want to block out as much as possible the outside sound so I can focus only on what is being recorded.
 
Yeah, that is why I didn't put a specific for the boom pole. I'm trying to save money, and using a makeshift boom when I need it would be cheaper and only a little harder.

After I posted this, I began looking up more on the JuicedLink preamps. I've looked into the JuicedLink RM333 a few hours ago. Still not quite sure how well it would work. Using that, I would still have to have a recorder, right? But would I plug it into the recorder using an XLR cable or a simple cable? If that's so, would a cheaper recorder kill the quality? The DR-05 is $90 cheaper, and doesn't have XLR input.

Also, would the $600 recorder you mentioned act as a better recorder and pre-amp than the ones I mentioned? Like an all-in-one thing? It would cost around a hundred more, but would be easier to use and could be cheaper, if I got it used.

Edit: I just watched the test video you posted and I saw the DR-680 and the JuicedLink Riggy both performed great, although I don't like the fact that I would have to use the riggy with a camera. I want to record separately as well.

So, for my purposes, which do you think would be best? The DR-680 by itself, the DR-40 with a preamp (MM1 or another cheaper preamp), the Riggy by itself (would have to use with a camera), or another less-than-$500(new or used) option, such as one with all of the features of the DR-680, but with less XLR inputs?
 
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When you say you want to "record separately as well" does that mean you want to record solely to a separate recorder or are you looking to record simultaneously into the camera and also a stand-alone recorder?

AFAIK, you can use the Riggy with a) a camera with a stereo minijack mic level input; or b) a recorder with a stereo minijack mic input; but not both at once as the Riggy has only one output to work with. So the Juicedlink doesn't lock you into recording only with a camera - you can go either way. The Riggy does not have an XLR output so you could not connect it to a recorder's XLR inputs (without using proper adapters at any rate). Remember the fundamental purpose of the various Juicedlink devices is to allow the use of microphones with XLR outputs with cameras and/or recorders that do not themselves have XLR inputs. In the process they provide decent preamps and may also provide level control, phantom power, monitoring, etc but their fundamental putpose is to allow the use of XLR mics with minijack inputs.
 
I'd suggest the Rycote INV-7 rather than INV-6. The INV-7 allows you to space the rubber supports further apart, useful for your future longer shotgun mike. You can position them closer together for the Oktava mike, however my lazy method is to attach one rubber lyre onto mike, one onto the XLR plug.
I'd suggest a used Sound Devices Mix-Pre rather than the MM1, has graet limiters.
 
I'd seriously spend some time reading the home and small studio recording magazines, because they have a very different approach to recording. Many sound people on video forums almost fall into the category of audiophile, which brings wry smiles from the people in the broadcast world who start with physics and end up with good sound by having functioning ears!

You've made a list of items but what 'need' did you base it on? What I mean is your comment on a mixer. You can use the mixer to record live, or maybe use it back in the studio to mix together a camera output with a stereo source, or loads of other things. You mention a boom pole - but looking at them from the Rode (which must be the most common started pole) upwards, what do you get for the extra. Maybe more reach, less weight, more rigidity, clever extra gadgets? How much boom work will you do? If you are not yet certain, I'd advise against the expensive ones - yet. Decent headphones, a useful mic (not always and expensive one), functional wind protection.

You can buy a phantom power supply, if you decide not to invest in a mixer that has it. Personally - I'd never get excited about a PSU - if the cheap one works, the only thing a more expensive one can do is have a sturdier box?
Seems I have to have this one to make the sound even worth listening to
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Yep - if you also intend to believe spending $1000 on an XLR cable is good value. If your recording device and/or mixer is really poor, then a super-expensive preamp won't help much. If your recording device is functional and popular, it will almost certainly be capable of producing good results.

Read this article
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct12/articles/preampsmedia.htm
The results were quite revealing!

In my studio, I loaned an expensive Soundcraft mixer to a colleague who needed two identical ones for a project. He loaned me a cheaper brand, with similar functions - and I actually found the extra effects and routing made it more useful than my own one! I also cannot hear any difference!

What exactly do you need to do? This will let you draw up a list of features you MUST have. Then you research the kit that will do the job. Then you look at reviews of this kit and use this to help you decide. In the end, you need something that works for you. There is so much dis/misinformation on forums that it's very dangerous buying without somebodies real world recommendations. As I've said many times - price is NOT an indication of something being 'best'. I love the pictures of the US Presidents over the years being miked up at the podium in front of the entire world using two microphones that cost under £100. When you consider that price absolutely is NOT the key feature here, then if it's good enough for the President, a dynamic cheap cardiod mic could well be very useful. If you need something to put on a boom, then why not widen your range a bit, and maybe even consider hiring or borrowing some kit to try out. Then you can listen and make your mind up.

I have a colleague who swears by his very expensive mic he uses for everything. I hate it!
 
Again, I'm on a very limited budget, so I can't go buy really expensive equipment. I didn't think about that for the mic shock though.

Would I be able to just use the DR-680 with the mic without an external preamp? Ideally, I would have a recorder with a good internal preamp, used for under $500. The MM1 isn't a recorder, so I'd have to get something like the DR-40 or DR-100 with it.

Hmm, the DR-680 is good by itself I've heard, but what about the DR-100? With just that and a good mic, would it give good sound? Not professional sound, obviously. I don't need all of the XLR inputs that the 680 gives, and the 100 is much cheaper.
 
Paulears, the post I just did was for the previous posts. I'll look at that link you posted. I decided in the Oktava because everyone seems to love it and the interchangeable capsules make it useful for more than just one thing. All I want is a simple way to get good sound without spending too much money. So my choice isn't going to be between a 1k and 2k mixer. I'm trying to get the best one within the low budget range. I won't spend too much money, whether or not the item is a lot better. An expensive preamp for me is over $500, which might be a cheap one for you. I have a small budget. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
 
+1 to what paulears stated.
Buying an expensive boom or other 'pro' gear does not make a pro. But as long as your spending, why not buy 'designer' mic cables if that floats your boat.
 
iamlance said:
So, for my purposes, which do you think would be best? The DR-680 by itself, the DR-40 with a preamp (MM1 or another cheaper preamp), the Riggy by itself (would have to use with a camera), or another less-than-$500(new or used) option, such as one with all of the features of the DR-680, but with less XLR inputs?
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As I stated the DR-680 is much more versatile than the Juicedliked or the DR-40 + MM1 products. It takes 6 mic inputs (4 XLRs and 2 ¼ TRS"). From what I see the main two complaints in the reviews are it is "plasticy" and therefore somewhat fragile and the "ride the gain" is configurable, but not as easy to use as 1 knob per channel would be. There are a lot of positive comments in the reviews, including from folk who needed to move up from (or supplement the H4n. It really depends on what you may use it for. For me having the capability for 6 microphones make the DR-680 much more adaptable to the indie type filming I am doing.

Oh and something I've noticed recently about XLR cables. The locking mechanisms are not all the same. I've found some can be hard to push to release.
 
Rick R said:
+1 to what paulears stated.
Buying an expensive boom or other 'pro' gear does not make a pro. But as long as your spending, why not buy 'designer' mic cables if that floats your boat.
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Because buying a $100 "audiophile" mic cable instead of an electrically identical $25 cable is $75 one could be spending on a better mic/recorder/mixer but is now not available.
 
Let me put it this way: I'm not going to buy ANY really high-up items, including cables. The original post was kind of answered (dealing with cables, booms, mic, etc.), but the question as to which preamp +/or recorder I should get hasn't been completely. What I want is a cheap recorder + preamp combo or a better recorder with a good built-in preamp, with either option priced at $500 or less (new or used). I know some of the products are more "versatile", but i'll be using one mic for now, and no more than 2 any time soon. So I don't need 6 XLR input preamp/recorder, if it's only "so much better" because of the more channels and inputs. I want a good way to get sound with a XLR phantom-powered mic for around $500.
 
If it were me, I wouldn't buy anything. Just read industry magazines and books. Watch instructional videos. make due with what you have and then build up from there. You'll learn the most by actually "doing", but I feel it's not the best idea to throw down a ton of cash on gear when you don't know how to use it yet (even though it is obvious you have done a fair amount of research already).
 
What, like just not record anything until I have a better understanding of how it all works? The Oktava requires a pre-amp or recorder, as it is phantom powered and XLR, so if I were to use it at all, then I'd have to buy something.
 
NO - I'm the other way - I'd never ever consider a preamp for $500, I'd make sure the devices I recorded onto had a useable one. The article I linked to had cheap vs expensive compared and everyone if they knew what they were, could identify the expensive ones, but things were far less clear when they had a blind test. Pre-amps of the expensive flavour often have a characteristic sound - often described with non-technical language - smooth, clean, liquid etc - I think most sound different, but which different is best? No idea!

You only need a preamp if the recording device you buy has ones that are noisy - as in they hiss when you crank the level up to deal with very weak input levels. Many people complain about the preamps in cheaper gear, but often just making sure mics are close enough to their sources means pre-amp noise is not a problem.

I have some Octava mics, bought a long time ago, and they sound quite mellow. I've got some similar ones from AKG that sound much brighter. The bright mics on a bright HF heavy source sound dreadul! The Octava's on a mellow instrument sound quite dull. Swapping them around works!

Only this week, I used a favourite, bright mic on a speaker who had a gap between his front teeth, meaning every breath had a sort of whistle - it just sounded dreadful. If I'd had the Octava with me, I'd have betted it would have been much nicer to listen to.

What I mean is decide what you are going to be doing. If you are going to be using something every day, then a quality product that maybe physically tougher is perhaps worth spending money on. If your boom only gets used once a month or so - and I have not used mine for 3 months because of the kind of projects we've been doing - then why not buy a second hand Rode on ebay and save your money!

You could buy a cheap Indian made zepplin windshield on ebay and with plenty of care, it could do the job. I tend to not treat accessory kit very carefully. I leave the mic kits in my van, and often they get heavier kit thrown in on top - and the bag is a soft one. The Rycote did get a bit squashed but was fine, but the spare Indian one now has a crack in the housing. Totally my fault - should have had a hard case.

If I were you, on a limited budget I would buy the critical items with tried and tested brands that everyone says are good. Take chances on the accessories if you have to save money.

I have got some mics with interchangeable capsules. Maybe it's just what I do, but I never use the hyper-cardioid capsules. Maybe it's the spaces I record in, or even that I'm just lucky - but I disregard the advice about shotguns in small spaces. It's very solid, physics based advice that is always given on video forums. It's just that for me - the rule is one I break. So I would NOT buy a mic and then buy a different capsule. I'd buy the mic I need, and when I can afford another - I'd buy an other complete mic and then I'd have two!

What would your typical project be? What or who would you be shooting and where - then maybe we can pick some items for you that you can use.
 
I know you are on a limited budget but I would seriously consider the long term for your equipment budget, which is why I would buy fewer pieces of gear that will last and hold their resale value.

If I was starting out again with a limited budget, I would look at buying a used Sound Devices MixPre mixer, which can be bought under $500. ( very good pre-amps, extremely low noise-floor, great headphone amplifier, and can supply phantom power 2 condenser mics for a full day on four AA rechargeable batteries )

Add to this any portable recorder with a low noise floor ( self-noise of -75 dB or lower ) like the Olympus LS-11 ( great mics, 17 hours on two AA, -75 dB noise-floor ) or the Tascam DR-100 MK2 ( 5 hours on rechargeble battery pack, -83 dB noise-floor ). I haven't tested the Tascam DR-40, so I don't know how it compares to the DR-100 in terms of noise. Sony PCM-M10 is good for LINE level inputs, but can get noisy when it's own mic pre-amp is used.
 
Hmm, well, as I haven't actually bought the mic yet, I could change it if you really thought it would be a bad idea. What I'd love to do is film short videos with my friends on a DSLR (I know the complications with that, but you can work around them) and have good sound to go with it. I wouldn't want a mic that plugs into the camera, as I want to have the ability to also use the mic for recording by itself. I know of some amazing pianists and guitarists near me that I would love to work with. I also live right next to a small gig place, where just-starting bands come and play. It would be cool and a really good learning experience for me to record them and see how the different methods and items work out. The sound needs to be good quality, without the noisy background some recorders like the H4n have. I'd want to be able to record inside most of the time, but have decent sound when recording outside (just talking, no instruments). I know that you would usually use separate mics, but I'm on a really tight budget. Oh, and I definitely wouldn't be using this mic every day, as I am quite busy right now. So, what I would need is 1. a mic that does that, as you don't believe the oktava would be very good and 2. a recorder with a good preamp/no background noise.

I looked at the article and the forum linked to it. The results had not been revealed yet, but I looked at the models used and only knew of like 2 of them, in which only 1 was near my price-range. If the one that I thought was cheap had great results, I would understand the article, but more than likely they are comparing the other 1k - 4k preamps and saying that you don't need the 4k one. I don't have 1k, so unless they are talking about the preamp that I thought was cheap, the article doesn't help. Wouldn't know though, as we don't have the results.


As for the hyper-cardioid capsules/mics, aren't they better for indoors? I know cardioids are better for instruments though.

I was going to buy the mic accessories on ebay anyway, but didn't think the knock-offs would work well. If they aren't $130 like the Rycote ones, I could buy one of those and try it out.

Which recording magazine would be good for me to read up on? I don't want one that just talks about how awesome this new product, which costs $$$$, is. One that more-so talks about techniques and ways to work around low-budgets would be nice.
 
TheDingo, the Sound Devices MixPre is good, but it has many features that I don't need. Yeah, they would be better in the long run, but I don't know if I'd have the money to buy that and a $400 recorder. Know of a recorder that has good pre-amps (instead of a recorder with an external preamp) and can be bought used for cheap on ebay?
 
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