Basic Run and Gun/Documentary Audio from the ground up

junct

junct

Active member
I'm after suggestions for building a basic run and gun kit from the ground up. I don't want to go too expensive, because for anything worth spending that kind of money, i'll be working with a dedicated audio person.
This is for fast-and-light documentary shoots, quick interviews, reference audio at live stuff, etc.

Ideally the kit will be a bit modular - i.e. i can upgrade the mic down the line if I reach a point of needing a better mic, and not need to change everything else for it to be worthwhile.


I have a basic understanding of sound, but have mostly stayed out of sound departments ways on sets for the last 5 years - i'm out of date and not super knowledgeable here.

The camera-mounted mics have never sounded good enough to me to justify their price... DSLR pre-amps and distance from the subject being the key issue here.


So, at minimum I'm thinking a basic recorder and a supercardioid.

Mount the recorded to camera/rig, and have the option of coldshoeing the mic (maybe there is a way to get this a bit further off camera, as well as being able to quickly take it off and perhaps boom myself, or use a pistol grip?

What kind of pieces of kit do I need to make this happen?

What kind of periphary *bits* do i need to consider? (windshields etc)?

Thanks for any advice on this mess of a post!



1. What is the budget that we are working with (either immediately or over the next few months)

Lets aim at $500, with some flexibility if needbe.

2. What type of films are you doing (short dramatic films, feature dramatic, documentary, interviews)
Documentary, interviews, videography of live events.

3. Are your locations PRIMARILY interiors or exteriors?
Unpredictable. Perhaps reasonably often will be the worst environs for sounds (e.g. busy conference rooms, or outdoors).

4. Will you be shooting outside at all with sound?
Probably.

5. What level of experience do you have with sound?Low, although I notice I understand a lot more about film sound than most non-sound filmies. I worked as an AD for a few years, and a few sound guys enjoyed working with me specifically because I was more considerate of their needs in capturing good sound.

6. What is the outlet you are hoping to have with the projects (DVD release for profit, web distribution, theatrical)
Web

7. Is this purchase for a specific project or are you looking to purchase a kit for general future projects?General - so looking at versatility, where I may borrow or rent extra bits and bobs when needed, but in all likeliness will be working with a proper pofessional kit on serious projects.

8. Why do you feel that it is beneficial for you to buy sound gear versus hiring a professional (or networking for free with a professional) to do your audio?
Gives me flexibility to shoot small commericial videography jobs, as well as my interest in micro-crew documentary (micro-crew appeals for the way I like to work with subjects).

9. Will you have a dedicated person to run sound (even a friend to hold a boompole)?
Sometimes. In these cases I'll probably be directing and manning a camera, while working with a dedicated sound person.

10. Do you notice the difference between good sound and poor sound when you are watching films?
Yes
 
If you love audio, I'd recommend spending more than $500 and getting a MixPre3 (to get the analog limiters- perfect for run & gun) and a decent shotgun.

A low-cost Audio Technica / Rode and a $23 Saramonic single channel preamp can work:


Note I would not recommend his super glue option if using a decent mic! Saramonic makes more expensive preamps that provide DLSR mounting options.

Also helpful to have a wireless system- $500 is a bit low, even for a used Sennheiser G3 kit, which could provide both a wireless lav and wireless shotgun (with Rode NTG-2 or other battery-powerable XLR mic (or any XLR dynamic mic)).

If open to dual recording, get the best recent Zoom or Tascam recorder and Rode (e.g NTG-2) / Audio-Technica (e.g. AT 875r) or similar high-bang for buck mic in your budget.
 
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I am open to dual recording - in fact i was kind of planning to go that way.

Unless there's a way to get better synced sound that I don't understand (I guess that pre-amp solution worked pretty well..). How do more expensive pre-amp-into-camera solutions compare to dedicated dual recording solutions? It *could* simplify kit and be sufficient for my needs. Or do you lose too much quality going into camera? The linked approach isn't one i've seen before. I'll typically be using my Panasonic g80.

Thankfully I have some friends with lower-end Zooms and Tascams (they're musicians, so sometimes use them for quick demos, lyric ideas etc), which I can generally borrow for the time being the save some money for higher budget kit.

Wireless system is a good suggestion. I didn't think about that. I don't particularly enjoy using lavs (maybe I just need a lot more practice), but maybe doing a wireless system on a shotgun would make things a bit easier (although maybe it just complicates things by adding more bits of kit, more batteries to think about..)


So your suggestion would be a MixPre3 + something like the NTG-2 or AT 875r? That could give me some starting point, as I could afford a mic along those lines, use it with a cheaper, borrowed lower quality handheld recorder for a while, then upgrade the recorder in future
 
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For a recorder I would seriously look at the F4.

The price varies but I got one not long ago on sale for $350 USD. You said $500 but you didn't say USD or NZD (not sure what the exchange rate is now but it used to be close to 2-1 advantage USD so that is a big budget difference.

On one level the Zoom is a lot more than you need BUT it's a much better form factor than handhelds and has a bunch of features that you will find useful and it's not a lot more than a handheld.

They just came out with V3 firmware and this adds the look ahead limiter that gives the SD limiters a run for the money. I love the SD limiters but these are pretty close. You can record to two cards at once and you can record at a lower level to one card. Between that and the limiter you greatly decrease the chance of ending up with trashed sound because you were not paying enough attention. V3 also adds "automix" which automates multiple inputs, muting ones that are not being used. I have not personally used this feature yet but folks who have have liked it a lot. In your case this could be a real help if you have a couple of people mic'd up, and should help post a bunch.

Versatile power. I have mine running off a power brick, but I have lithium batteries in the sled. The brick will run all day but the power will switch to the sled if I need to switch bricks. The lithium since they are almost never used should last almost "shelf-life" and they don't leak. You could do the same with Alkaline but you need to take them out when not in use incase one decides to leak. NiMh would also work and don't leak (that I know of) but won't last as long.

I think for your use it's a lot better bang for the buck than anything else on the market. And it does have a camera mount plate.
 
If you can start with the MixPre3 even with one of the budget mics, you'll be able to upgrade to better mics and never need to upgrade the recorder. The NTG-2 can be useful on battery or with a wireless transmitter- the quality is good enough for many uses. I say this owning what's considered to be the best commercially available shotgun, the Schoeps CMIT5U. Thus I still use my first decent shotgun mic, the Rode NTG-2, because under battery operation it provides usable results (typically with a wireless transmitter these days, though for up close doc/verite work, it still gets used on camera (1DX II). Really would be nice to have a tiny single channel DSLR mic preamp so I could run the CMIT5U. Current market they're pretty big and clunky).

When using wireless, you'll get a decent amplifier into the camera, so the quality will be pretty good, even with the G80 (you'll crank up the wireless output and lower the G80 mic input as low as possible, typically one click above off). If running the MixPre3 into camera, you'll also get excellent results (I've used both Sound Devices and Zoom (F4) into camera directly and I haven't had the desire to deal with separate audio. For narrative work I'd test dual recording to see if it provided significantly better quality (that "normal" folks can hear). Otherwise IMO it's not worth the extra work for dual recording).

The NTG-2 and AT 875r were the top indie mics year ago, there are many other options now as well. Perhaps put on some decent headphones and listen to some demos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=best+low+budget+shotgun+mic
For decent budget headphones, I still use the Sony 7506, also useful for location/recording because they are super comfortable, light, pack really small & cheap enough if they get broken or stolen, not a big deal. Going higher for quality AT ATHM50, Focal Listen, and to the top (for my needs) customized Stax SRS-3100 electrostatic (google: best bang for buck modded stax SRS-3100 ). Electrostatics get crazy expensive ($3K to over $55K! https://gizmodo.com/we-listened-to-sennheisers-absurd-55-000-orpheus-headp-1741947676 ), however modded Stax provide amazing bang-for-buck quality (under $1K).

EDIT: I've got the the Zoom F4 and a Sound Devices USB Pre2 (which has the same topology as the older top-of-the-line Sound Devices gear; not clear if newer/cheaper MixPre's are same/better/worse). I'll try the new look-ahead digital limiter firmware upgrade for the F4 that Scott mentioned, however the SD preamps just sound fuller, more detailed vs. the Zoom. When you clip the SD limiters, they still sound pretty good until you go crazy hot, and even then sounds like tube-amp style compression: smooth butter distortion vs. digitally harsh clipping distortion. The MixPre3 is also a bit smaller than the Zoom F4. The F4 has 4 channels (need to get a MixPre6 to match), so if you need 4 channels (we do for Ambisonic 3D (Sennheiser Ambeo)), the F4 is a pretty good deal. The MixPre's aren't perfect- google (or search YouTube) to see if any issues are important for your use case (including powering options).
 
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Im gonna forget that you have a DSLR.

You need a camera package with 2 XLR inputs. (Yes make that from a DSLR and recorder if you need to)

For RnG Id say the minimum is a short shotgun (I have a sanken CS2) and a lav mic.

Now this is the 'trick'.. you want to use the shotgun as a top mic or fast liberate it to be held by someone else.

Basically that mic is on a 3m lead that is wrapped around the brick battery when the mic is top mounted or unwound and handheld by someone else.

Top mic sounds OK.. if you are close enough.

FOr interviews just get close with a 24 or use the camera to just record sound by walking up to your sound source and recording a bit without thing about the image. Shoot the image seperately.

You 'need' a lav if you are following a specific 'hero'.

If your hero is a teacher you can record thier whole lesson while pointing the camera at the reactions of the kids (or the teacher)
 
I have the original MixPre which I believe is strictly analog.And I agree with JCS that the preamps are really nice and the limiters are fantastic. I haven't used the nes limiters on the F4 enough to compare but the old ones were 99% there so I expect the new ones to work very well. The pres, ? I can't say that I notice a huge difference but I have decades with the Mix Pre and months with the F4. I still use the MixPre to feed inputs 5/6. Which BTW is a minor correction the F4 has 6 inputs, only 4 mic ins (unless you buy the extender), and 5/6 which is a line in pair.

I am 99% doing stereo or mono FX recording but I have done some doc shoots and a reality TV thing where I was using multiple recorders because all of mine were two channel. Being able to record 6 channels at once would have been a major plus. I like SD a lot and if you have the budget go for it but SD doesn't really have anything under $500 so it's kind of out of your price range.

Of course if your talking about adding wireless you just blew past the $500 budget so...
 
Small musician recorders don't have the greatest preamps, which is exacerbated when paired with a mic that's not very sensitive (like the NTG2 & AT897). The new ones are probably better, but my MK1 Tascam DR-100 struggles to give me good levels with my AT897.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably go with a Tascam DR-60DmkII recorder, Audio-Technica AT875R mic, and possibly a RodeLink wireless kit (if you can swing it).
 
As Scott noted, the Zoom F4 has 6 input channels (4 XLR, like the MixPre6) and if you need more than 2 channels, you must use separate audio (though you can route just two channels and/or mix as desired to two channels to the record out into the camera). This thread contributed to this ridiculous test (and even learned something useful haha): http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...era-2-greats-like-peanut-butter-amp-chocolate : you can belt mount any recorder/preamp (as an audio only guy might do) instead of trying to mount the recorder/preamp directly to the camera. This is especially useful for handheld shots.
 
It might be wonderful to be speculate what might be ideal gear... BUT if you want run'n'gun then you should perhaps look at what a broadcast network may want.....
And they DON'T want DSLR and split systems.... Split system is for 'creative' post production not fast paced production.

As as a suggestion first track down who has $$$ to spend for video capture, then gear up to suit that market.
 
The client might not be a broadcast network. But one still needs to ba able to operate in a practical manner on location. ANd a bunch of wires on a shonky rig does not add up to that. Having a device mounted on a flimsy hotshoe does not add up to that.

In the sound forum it seems that chat usually quickly moves to gear wheras AFAIK (not being the best soundie) the first thing with good audio is correct mic placement. Which is not tirivial in RnG situations when shooting solo.

Whats the cheapest XLR ND S35 camera? FS5 EVA1 ? If one is seious about shooting doco for money one at least needs to get one of these.. or consider a handycam - Im personally interested in the new panny CX 350 - which will be practical and costs I guess the same or less than a DSLR+Zoom plus a bunch of jumper cables and ND filters.

On the other hand IM interested in making some wierd RnG camera bolting my SD702 and BMC Micro together and gettting a classic S16 zoom.. but that is an extreme and oddball project :)

The is of course an andvantage to running dual sound in that one can rolls sound virtually continually.. this gets all spoken audio from a laved subject and will get some interesteing wild track. This is particularly important when ones camera does not have preroll/cach record. Fun to synch though!.
 
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Ok lots and lots of options. Really good discussion and comments from different angles. Suggestions that aren't affordable for me at the moment.

The main thing I'm hearing is:
1) ensure I have a good recorder - obviously. The zoom f4, or premix-3 are the two oft suggested here.
2) Pair with a good shotgun. The 875r and ntg-2 seem to be the most common recommendations in the indie market.
3) Lavs are real useful.
4) A wireless set up will for sure be useful, but expensive.
5) Some split opinions on running dual audio vs recording directly to camera. The latter being true run and gun (I don't necessarily need run and gun in post, so the loss of quality isn't necessarily worth it until i perhaps owned a true documentary camera with XLRs in).


I can't afford to do all of this now, but here's what i'm thinking in terms of priority and building something to upgrade over time.

1) Get a shotgun that suits my needs (ntg-2 or 875r probably). Make sure it can be used with a wireless set up down the line. Use with the lower end handy recorders I have available. Not ideal, but still better than a rode videomic i imagine. Mount the recorder to my hip/chest/cage.
Probably dual record, but also look at running the recorder into camera.
Look for a way to mount to the top of camera, but also take off and use it handheld (if i'm doing a tripod shot, i can get closer this way).

QUESTIONS
- Will something like a mini pre-amp suggested early in this thread give better quality going directly into camera than a zoom h4n or tascam 40d?
- Any suggestions for quick handheld mounts that can come on and off camera quickly?

2) Upgrade to a zoom h4 or premix 3 when finances allow

3) Add a lav and wireless kit when finances allow

4) Alternatively consider shifting camera systems instead of using a zoom h4/premix, and look at cameras better set up to deal with documentary sound?
 
From what I've read, the NTG-2 is a low sensitivity mic which is a problem with budget preamps. Lot of folks prefer the AT. No matter what you use, it will not sound very good recorded with a DSLR. For docus and such, a cam mic is almost a must-have for nat sound. It's no good for interviews and such, unless your within a foot or so of the subject.
 
Nat sound? is that another term for ambient sound, or reference track?

My thinking with running into camera is that even some of the budget zooms and tascams can let you run sound into the 3.5mm on the DSLR while also recording to an SD card.
My assumption is that going into camera through the 3.5mm, even using the recorders pre-amps (which won't be particularly good) will lead to lower quality than what'll be recorded on the recorder? If so, that's ok, because it can just be reference sound for syncing in post.

Given a passable recorder and passable mic would probably blow my budget a bit, i'd rather get the mic now, use it with a sub-par recorder and then get something at a better low-mid level (such as the zoom h4 or premix). If I invested in either of those now, I wouldn't really be able to afford a mic that doesn't end up moved on from fairly quickly.
 
Suggestions that aren't affordable for me at the moment.


Assuming you are in business (not a hobbyist) it might serve you well to buy the correct equipment for your work on a 36month basis.

This will cost you in interest charges but save on any trade ups - if go up step by step you will be hit by big depreciation.

And you have the right tools from day one. I started with a DSLR and tascam recorder.. wated loads of money on ND filters, matte boxes, audio jumper cables and my rig was a total mess. Of course I sold it al at a huge loss and then got a 'video camera' (Sony F3).. which I should have done from day one. F3 era.. quite costly.. FS5 is peanuts in comparison.
 
Hobby-ist first. Dabbled in videography a bit, but my main business comes as an editor and a few on-set roles. I've moved to focus a lot more on my hobby-side of work (unhappy with the paid work where I was, and too small of a local industry to break out into what i wanted to do). Primarily a hobby-ist who might get back into the videography side in the future.
 
What you have to factor in is where different folks are coming from and how that fits with where you want to go. And it looks like your doing a pretty good job of that.

Documentaries is a very wide category as is Run and Gun. I know folks who make a living doing even videography (R&G) who use DSLR's exclusively and a mix of direct to camera and recorder pass through depending on what the shot is and what the audio will be used for. Many of these folks are doing the editing while shooting is going on and are delivering a finished film the same day as the event. This is really common with wedding videos but also with other events.

I worked on a pilot for a doc series/ reality TV that was all R&G that used a decent mid quality video camera and me as boom/ mixer/ all things sound. I had a boomed mic and plugged in to the camera for interviews, he went with an on board mic for B roll and I swapped in a stereo mic to pick up SFX and ambiences (a lot of this took place at airshows, so lots of sounds to collect). The "hero" sound was in camera with a backup on my recorder, but they had edit time so it was more for ease than speed.

I worked a number of events with multiple cameras in fixed positions and a couple of roving ones. Basically what you might have for a concert shoot. I was at a station and recording 14 or so iso tracks from a slew of mics on stage and doing live mix downs (the event was being simultaneously translated in to four+ languages). The mixdowns were for a fast turnaround on event DVD's. There was also an editor doing live switching for the onstage projection and for the video for the same day DVD.

I worked on a doc. about a biker band, very low budget R&G. Again I plugged in for interviews and romed for SFX. Much like the airshow but somewhat cheaper equipment (video wise, mine was the same).

And I did a "reality" show, all R&G shot on a $$$$$$$ camera and a full truck of lenses and fun toys. I for get the model but I looked it up when I got back and the body was like $35,000. The DP probably had half a mill of gear he brought in. Again I was only hooked up for interviews. They had not budgeted it nor really explained what the situation was going to be or I would have rented a wireless hop for the camera. They had asked for minimal equipment and then just kept asking for more and more stuff. THey got some because we were out in the middle of nowhere so I had brought lots of backups and redundancies and we ended up using all of it. So they ended up with camera audio and three two track recordings for a lot of the show. THey had specced "a recorder and a boom mic", I ended up with that plus my two backup recorders and four mics on wireless hops to the recorders. And for this last monster bit we were locked down so there was no reason I couldn't have used the multichannel setup, but they failed to mention that part and it was a six our drive each way to add it in.

Point is anyone who says "this is what you need to do X" is talking about what they do and need. Unless you are doing the same thing it may not be a good fit for you.

Personally.

I would stay away from handheld recorders in your shoes.
Yes they are small and cheap, but they are awkward to use and as a OMB you should minimize anything that takes a lot of attention to keep from failing.
The displays are small and hard to read at a glance, the buttons are small and generally cramped together. They are very menu intense, because they don't have the space for buttons and knobs. For wild SFX recording they are great, for super small super light shoots they may be a must. But they are harder to use, harder to tell what is going on, have fewer powering options, and poorer connectivity. They usually depend on 1/8" connectors that don't lock and are pretty fragile. So if size and weight trump everything else then OK but for you I would go with something larger that is more versatile and will be easier to not screw up when your only 1/2 paying attention.

For mics the 875r would probably be my choice over the NTG2. It's shorter is a bit wider so it should be a bit more forgiving. The NTG2 is a pretty long mic and that might be an issue for you. Some people hate them but I had no problem with them the one time I was handed one on a shoot. It sounded fine and it worked OK indoors. It was not a bouncy room but still some shotguns just sound bad indoors.

You have done a pretty good job of explaining what you are doing but, assuming you have done something like this before, you will probably know better than we what your specific preferences are.

My only advice that I think is pretty valid across the board is that if at all possible plan past where what you need right now. So if you are just booming you only really "need" one track. You can't really get less than two but if you use two they are likely to be say a boom and a wireless. So thinking ahead you want a recorder where you have easy independant control over the inputs. Some two track recorders make it hard to set seperate levels for the two channels assuming you are going to be recording stereo. Also a few years down when you have that three or four person interview it would be really nice to have some extra tracks on that recorder. At the current cost of recorders that can do more than two tracks it's probably silly to go with a two track recorder unless there is some other critical need than pushes you in that direction.

The other 'sage" advice is never buy below the level you can use as backup when you get better gear.
 
Thank you - that's really good clarity. Yes I've been in-and-around things to keep perspective. I'm also trying to reign in my tendency to try and buy solutions that won't actually be that suitable to my needs (again, for any serious work I've always worked with a professional sound person). My main goal is little experimental narrative projects, low-budget mini documentary, and perhaps some bits and pieces of videography (never a main job, but sometimes an easy gig comes along so it's nice to be able to take it).

I've never quite done the experimental narrative or low-budget doco stuff. I started out doing this, but quickly ended up collaborating more (with a dusty gear-shelf, when the DoP preferred his set of cine primes etc), so I'm trying to keep this kit self contained and modular.

Noiz2, your advice is pretty close along the lines of what I'm thinking. From the reviews and comparisons i've read, the at875r is likely a more suitable mic for my needs. I'd like a better recorder than a handheld, but I can get away with that for an upcoming weekend shoot and upgrade after next months pay cheque.
 
Your camera(DSLR) is the biggest limiting factor. I can't begin to tell you how much network television I have done(and has been done in general) with a wireless run directly into the camera on auto(audio levels) and the on-board shotgun(nat mic).
 
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