Basic NTG1 and NTG2 Questions

H

Hunter S. Thompson

Active member
Alright so I understand that the NTG1 and NTG2 are the same audio wise, the NTG2 is just longer and has the option for the battery. Both being phantom powered.

My two main questions are:
  1. How much of a drain does phantom power put on the HMC150 batteries without a mixer?
  2. How well will they work for snowboarding or skateboarding with a dead cat?
I'm trying to capture clean crisp audio shooting skateboarding or snowboarding all day so I can't have my mic let alone camera die on me from phantom power. Also with a dead cat, since the mics are directional I should be able to hear the noises the snowboarder makes but with all of the wind sound cut out correct?

Is this achievable in this price range or should I just get a dead cat with the onboard mic?

I'm trying to achieve something similar to the audio in this:
http://vimeo.com/33678435
 
You want to emulate THAT?!
It isn't clear that what you were hearing wasn't just random scraping sounds added during post-produciton.
For sure you will have A LOT less drain on your recording device if you use a self-powered microphone.

If I were doing it, I would put a portable recorder on the skiier, and use a couple of lav mics.
One in their collar as close to the mouth as possible. You will need a furry to protect from wind noise.
I would use another lav down around the calf or ankle to pick up good, isolated snow sounds.
I wouldn't be above experimenting with something like these. They are essentially disposable
in case of any mishap in the snow...
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MIKE-93/ELECTRET-MICROPHONE/1.html
 
So is there any point in getting an NTG1 or 2 to film snowboarding? Will I be able to capture as accurate audio as I want or should I just put a windscreen over my stock mic?
 
Are you asking about recording the dialog, or the sound effects? Do you have a dedicated sound crew member? There are to many unknowns here to make a hard recommendation.

If you try it with wind protection over your current equipment, what do you get? Are you happy with it? What deficiencies are there? You can't fix something until you analyze what's wrong with it.
 
I have a NTG-2 and used it on a mockumentary film that was shot all over Fort Worth last December. Watching the footage later, I was really impressed by the sound capture from some very run-and-gun situations. Provided that you have it properly aimed and close enough to the talent.
 
I don't have a dedicated sound crew or mixer. I'm a one man band. I haven't tried a screen on the stock mic because I'm looking to achieve better audio of the actual riding noises primarily and maybe dialogue. I'm not standing still but chasing the snowboard down the hill on my snowboard tracking them and without protection the stock mic pics up nothing but the wind. I feel if even if protected it wouldn't be directional enough to catch the riding sound effects and rail slide noises.

What is the ideal distance to capture the sound on the stock mic vs on the NTG1 or 2?
 
Hunter S. Thompson said:
I don't have a dedicated sound crew or mixer. I'm a one man band. I haven't tried a screen on the stock mic because I'm looking to achieve better audio of the actual riding noises primarily and maybe dialogue. I'm not standing still but chasing the snowboard down the hill on my snowboard tracking them and without protection the stock mic pics up nothing but the wind. I feel if even if protected it wouldn't be directional enough to catch the riding sound effects and rail slide noises.

What is the ideal distance to capture the sound on the stock mic vs on the NTG1 or 2?
Click to expand...

Mics are going to be sensitive to wind unless you shield them - period, end of story. The more directional the mic, the more sensitive it is to air movement around and over it. At the speeds a snowboarder is moving you have a veritable gale-force wind moving over the mic and without extreme wind protection it's not going to be very good.

Ideal working distance for a short shotgun is about 22 inches. Farther distances require the gain to be turned up to get adequate levels but that increases the level of noise as well as the level of the desired signal. Couldn't say for the stock mic but it's certain it's closer than you're going to want to have the camera positioned.

The sounds of the board on the snow would usually be recorded separately from the video and added as SFX in post. It may very well be something totally different from a real snowboard on real snow, chosen because it sounds like what people expect a snowboard to sound like. (The sounds of that insect munching on a leaf you might hear while watching a nature documentary aren't REALLY the sound of that insect on the screen eating!)
 
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Gary Huff said:
I have a NTG-2 and used it on a mockumentary film that was shot all over Fort Worth last December. Watching the footage later, I was really impressed by the sound capture from some very run-and-gun situations. Provided that you have it properly aimed and close enough to the talent.
Click to expand...
I'm very impressed myself with my NTG2. Even indoor (so far from what I've tested) it performs very well, especially compared to my previous SGM-1x...it's simply not in the same league.
Richard Crowley said:
I would try a mic on the performer, either wireless or with a pocket recorder.
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That would be another option, easier to get the best sound possible and it's not that hard to sync in post (provided there's at least a clap at the beginning). You can get decent sound fom 19$ mic and a 99$ recorder, all under 150$ shipped. But people around here don't like much that brand...
 
What are your thoughts on the MIC150? I want to get the crisp snowboard sounds like in this video:

http://vimeo.com/35446944

I highly doubt they are redubing sounds with other audio clips, no at the level of film they're operating at. I know that the second video was filmed with a DSLR where the first one I linked was with a camcorder, so it may not be as easy to compare. Basically since the shotgun has an optimal distance of 22" and I will be several feet from the rider am I going to capture the rider's noises at all? If it isn't going to be similar to the way I think, should I just rely on a windscreen on the stereo onboard mic?
 
I'd say your best bet is what drapeama said. Most people are frightened by the thought of synchronization, but it's extremely simple as long as, like he said, you've got a clap at the beginning. Try a lav on the snowboarder if you want real sounds. I'm not sure how well a lav would perform on a snowboarder, though. What I would do is just go the post-prod way. You could probably actually use a recorder, like an H1 near the obstacles, and overlay that to the tricks. Then you can overlay previous snow sounds on the riding parts.
 
KyranFord said:
I'd say your best bet is what drapeama said. Most people are frightened by the thought of synchronization, but it's extremely simple as long as, like he said, you've got a clap at the beginning. Try a lav on the snowboarder if you want real sounds. I'm not sure how well a lav would perform on a snowboarder, though. What I would do is just go the post-prod way. You could probably actually use a recorder, like an H1 near the obstacles, and overlay that to the tricks. Then you can overlay previous snow sounds on the riding parts.
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1) Portable here is the key.
2) It's a breeze, even with a simple hand clap, as long as it peaks the audio, then you simply normalize after that clap and sync from there.
3) A lav on the snowboarder would probably be the hard part, but would be very realistic. Be sure to get a good windscreen on the lav though...
4) That's what I had in mind: Zoom H1 + Azden EX-503, both for 118$+tx & shipping on B&H. Simple, cost-effective and would give great sound. Second option would be the NTG2 camera mounted, provided you'll be within 10 to 15 feet from the snowboarder, as it's directional, you should get some nice sound from it too.
Here's a quick video I've done with that Azden Lav. For the price, it performs well. It's quick, untouched and recorded directly using my T2i, but you can see how good it is:
 
I'm bumping this because I bought an H4N, I think I will buy the Azden mics from above for interviews. I can hide my H4n when filming one obstacle, no problem. The problem is the following of the rider; would I be ale to mount my H4N on the hotshoe of the HMC150 and use it as a shotgun microphone? How will this perform, and will the audio be more quality then the stock microphone on the HMC150 even if I'm recording at the same rate of 48KHz 16-bit, what about 48KHz 24-bit. I'm sorry, but I'm a noob as far as audio is concerned. What range can I expect with a deadcat if I'm just trying to get the sound of the snow and the banging on the rails.I just don't feel comfortable putting a mic on the talent riding anymore, and if I can use the H4N on my hotshoe, that would apply to many of my other applications as well!

Thank you for your time, Hunter!
 
NO mic mounted on the camera hotshoe or used at the camera position is going to give you quality sound 99.99& of the time. The camera position is simply the wrong place for a microphone most of the time.

"Shotgun" refers to microphones with a certain narrow pickup pattern that get their directionality from an interference tube on the mic. The H4n's built-in mics are a stereo pair and they are not tightly directional so no, you can't use your H4n as a shotgun, 'cause it simply ain't one.

As for working distance, with or without a deadcat, exactly what are you recording? There's a big difference between shooting a love scene versus a jet catapulting off an aircraft carrier. We have to know precisely what you're trying to record before a meaningful answer is possible

Why don't you "feel comfortable" putting a mic on the talent?
 
Steve House said:
NO mic mounted on the camera hotshoe or used at the camera position is going to give you quality sound 99.99& of the time. The camera position is simply the wrong place for a microphone most of the time.

"Shotgun" refers to microphones with a certain narrow pickup pattern that get their directionality from an interference tube on the mic. The H4n's built-in mics are a stereo pair and they are not tightly directional so no, you can't use your H4n as a shotgun, 'cause it simply ain't one.

As for working distance, with or without a deadcat, exactly what are you recording? There's a big difference between shooting a love scene versus a jet catapulting off an aircraft carrier. We have to know precisely what you're trying to record before a meaningful answer is possible

Why don't you "feel comfortable" putting a mic on the talent?
Click to expand...

I understand that the H4n isn't as directional, but I was hoping I could set it at 90 degrees, throw a deadcat on and track a snowboarder like in this video. But obviously with better quality audio. I knwo for a fact that these videoas are filmed on the HMC150 or HVX200 with a shotgun microphone and no mixer, because I asked the filmer a while ago and studied the silhouettes of the filmer in the video haha.

http://vimeo.com/24424710

I'll be using lavaliers if I'm filming an interview, but when I'm filming snowboarding it will be tracking shots or individual shots like the video above. I was hoping to use the H4N, because I would prefer to not buy a shotgun microphone on top of the H4N I just bought. I decided to buy the Audio Technica ATR3350 as my lavalier instead of the one suggested above.

I don't comfortable putting a mic on the talent as far as snowboarding is concerned. Snowboarding is a dangerous sport, especially when you're rocketing on through the air, falling on to hard snow or hard metal. Things are bound to break, so even filming could be a disaster story. Putting a mixer and lavalier on the rider would be the best bet for audio bar none, but it's also the most risky and my pockets aren't deep enough to afford the replacement mixers and lavaliers.
 
You wouldn't put both the mixer and a lav on the snowboarder. If you were to use a lav, you'd put the mic and a small wireless transmitter on the snowboarder and the mixer, if you used one at all, would be at the camera along with the wireless receiver.

The built-in mics on the H4n are cardioid capsules, much much less directional than a shotgun. They need to be fairly close to the source for voice and FX. They might work for the board sounds if the pass-by is close to the recorder but probably won't pick up the boarder's voice very clearly at all unless he's yelling.

The video you linked to is most seriously hampered by the wind sounds and the handling noises from the camera.
 
Steve House said:
You wouldn't put both the mixer and a lav on the snowboarder. If you were to use a lav, you'd put the mic and a small wireless transmitter on the snowboarder and the mixer, if you used one at all, would be at the camera along with the wireless receiver.

The built-in mics on the H4n are cardioid capsules, much much less directional than a shotgun. They need to be fairly close to the source for voice and FX. They might work for the board sounds if the pass-by is close to the recorder but probably won't pick up the boarder's voice very clearly at all unless he's yelling.

The video you linked to is most seriously hampered by the wind sounds and the handling noises from the camera.
Click to expand...

All I'm after is the sounds of the snowboarder to be honest. I will be using a redhead windscreen, on the H4N and I have a windscreen on my HMC150 on board mic that actually performs very well. DO you think the windscreen on the H4N will perform adequately to capture the noises the rider is making?
 
Hunter S. Thompson said:
All I'm after is the sounds of the snowboarder to be honest. I will be using a redhead windscreen, on the H4N and I have a windscreen on my HMC150 on board mic that actually performs very well. DO you think the windscreen on the H4N will perform adequately to capture the noises the rider is making?
Click to expand...
The windscreen does nothing one way or the other to help the mics pick up sound. What it does do is reduce the wind rumble that might otherwise obscure the sound being picked up.
 
Steve House said:
The windscreen does nothing one way or the other to help the mics pick up sound. What it does do is reduce the wind rumble that might otherwise obscure the sound being picked up.
Click to expand...
SO with all of that in mind, would the H4N make a better on camera microphone, then the HMC150's onboard microphone for capturing snowboard sounds? Will they be of higher quality and more accurate even if I'm recording at the same bitrate as the HMC150? I really appreciate your consistency in replying by the way!
 
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