Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

H

Hyperbolic

Member
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1109551101;start=0#1 date=02/27/05 at 20:09:08]Whether HD will be "all the rage" remains to be seen. Even now, 7 years after HDTV was first offered to the American public, only 7% of American households have some sort of HDTV (and many of those are HD-"ready", but aren't actually equipped to receive an HD signal!)

So, HD may or may not be all the rage, however, there are amny of us who think HDV will most definitely not be all the rage. HDV is a way to record high-def, but there are better ways (and Panasonic will release a camera that employs one of those better ways, but it's at least two months, and maybe as much as 10 months away!)

So, yes, the question you really need to answer is: HD? Or film-look SD? Because right now you can't have film-look HD, that's not among the options available to you. So decide which is more important, and decide how important it is to you to get something *now*... if you have a business purpose for it, get it now and put it to work. If it's strictly for personal use, and HD is important to you, Jan's promising us a product that will (if I remember the quote correctly) "blow HDV away". But it may be quite a wait.

So you can have film-looking standard-def, with 7 gamma curves, 24p, 30p and 60i, the best audio of any prosumer camera, better low light performance, better latitude, the book/dvd, the rebate, magic bullet for editors, and this community to back you up... but it's only standard-def. Or you can go for high-def, which will mean giving up all those other features but getting startlingly sharp high-def pictures that look like very sharp, very high-res video.

Or, if you can wait, you'll get the best of both worlds -- high-def 24P...[/quote]

Wow.

Barry, I love this board, these posters, and the DVX100A, and I have found your responses to most FX1/HD posts to be pretty measured and fair. As an owner and user of an FX1 now, I often disagree with your final assessments, but I've appreciated your caveats and attempts to be balanced. Until now.

This post is the biggest sales pitch I've ever seen you throw out there. I know that you've made a career of supporting Panasonic, and more power to you -- they make great equipment that I like using. But I think now I'm starting to doubt your fairness and I'm wondering if you're willing to stretch the truth.

I'm here to say that HDV is pretty amazing -- on mini-DV tapes I get a beautiful 1440x1080 picture. Does the DVX have certain advantages over the FX1? Of course! And vice versa. And I'm sure the HD DVX will, too. But stating as fact that "a better way" to record HD is on the way from Panasonic assumes a LOT. It's not like P2 technology is a proven staple of the industry! It may turn out to be great, but man, HDV is great, too -- that's why Canon, JVC, and Sony are all on board. And I've used it a lot myself and found it wonderful! All the formats have their compromises in this price range, but as long as you know how to shoot good footage, you can get a GREAT picture with HDV technology. Isn't that all that matters?

This is doing more than just touting the DVX/Panasonic advantages -- you're taking speculation and inferences about Panasonic's future cam and insinuating they're fact. You've left yourself some wiggle room to deny this, but posters are thanking you for "confirming their suspicions" and so forth -- they're taking it as fact, and I really wish you would be more careful.

You're also ripping on HDV in subtle ways that make it seem as though it's unusable or unprofessional -- but it isn't. And it's most likely here to stay (just like the DVX!).

I know you mean well and you seem like a great guy. I bought and used your DVD/book. I don't want to flame anyone here. I just want to make sure the HDV = unusable rumors have a response, and most importantly, I want us to beware of the claims that Panasonic's answer WILL assuredly be better. Talking up P2 is all guesswork right now.

On, and as for film-look, check my other post. :)
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I'm quite happy with my HDV format and my images are quite film like in some circumstances. The only thing Panasonic could improve is Progressive Frame, but this time they seem to be too late. Most of us have alredy established a good workflow.
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

Yes I agree with the two posts above. I own an FX1 and the results are superb.

As for filmic look, well its quite possible to acheive a fantastic film look in post. Nattress, DVFilm are just two that do a grand job at converting to 24P

Barry I always read your posts, as they are informative, well written and have on numerous occassions been right on the button.

But your post above is extremely biased. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but your comments are often taken as gospel by many. Has Jan Crittenden been in contact, asking for you to whip up anti HDV feeling and make a post to the many current DVX owners who are seriously considering jumping ship to the FX1 or ZU1?

As Hyperbolic has stated, both cameras have their pros and cons. But the next year will see a massive boom in the HD market, and Sony are clearly leading the way with the FX1, ZU1 and the many HDV ready TV models now in the stores.
We don't even know what Panasonic are going to do about it, other than there is going to be a camera, perhaps 10 months away, which will be under $10,000. Hardly a price that will have many on here running out to the stores to grab one, or be prepared to wait that long while rival businesses take the advantage.

What would be ideal is if Panasonic came out with a rival to the FX1, with 24P, in the next few months, priced in the same range. That would only benefit everyone, as it would hot up into a massive battle where we would all reap the rewards.
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I just do not understand, why Panasonic is not interested in getting part of the HD community (together with Sony, Canon, JVC...) - I am sure, that this behaviour will transpire to be a very big mistake, because all the video publications (at least here in Germany) are very very curious about, what will be shown next on the HD market, and I am also sure, that they all will point out, "that the new Panasonic ??? is not a real HD camera." So maybe the mass of potential purchasers will buy a Sony or whatever camera to be a part of the HD game, I am sure of that, too. What do You think about it?
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

Panasonic not interested in getting part of the HD community ???

I think you may be referring to the HDV consortium as Panasonic has clear plans to enter the prosumer HD camera market their own way. What do you mean by "that the new Panasonic ??? is not a real HD camera" quote? It has been confirmed that it will be able to shoot in DVCPROHD, undoubtedly an HD format that clearly has some advantages over HDV (mainly compression). It is also more of an established HD format as it has been around for a while and their are even NLEs that natively support it (Final Cut Pro for example).

It would be silly to say Panasonic is not interested in getting part of the HD community. By them not joining the HDV consortium, they must feel that they have some sort of advantage with the format that they have created for HD. How they go about the implementation of this is what will be the deal breaker.

HDV is wonderful in that it has (like DV) brought an option to more of the masses that wasn't practical before because of costs. A lot of people seem to shoot things down before really looking at it or trying it out. HDV is new so people are going to have doubts, which is understandable .... but give it some time. Whether is develops further is in the hands of the people.

I personally am very interested in what Panasonic is going to bring to the table. Only opens more options to us that haven't been available before.

I love this site! ;D
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I agree , mgalvan! Robert's post isn't helping, it's just causing more inflammatory rhetoric. To refocus the post, I'm not here to bash the new Panny HD DVX -- I'm just trying to protect the FX1 from false slander and/or being belittled against a cam that hasn't even come out yet.
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

That's certainly understandable Hyperbolic ...

Again, as with anything new, uncertainty comes with it. A lot of people will make judgements based on maybe what others have said or reading up whats on paper as opposed to trying it out for themsleves. With you being an owner of an FX1, you undoubtedly decided that the camera would fit your needs and it seems it does. Well ....

GOOD FOR YOU!!! ;D

And thats the point ... people need to look into what their needs are. I can understand people's need to want the latest and greatest ( I suffer from this disease :P ) but ask yourself, does this new technology work for you? If it doesn't, well then people will have the tendency to criticize it in certain ways that may not be fair. This is what I am seeing with HDV.

If it doesn't work for you, don't use it. Add constructive criticism but please don't take it further than that as it causes posts like this to occur. I too had doubts about HDV when it was announced and now that I have seen it in action and tried out these Sony cameras, I have come to see why it would appeal to some and not to others. I personally think it is not the way I will choose for HD acquisition as I do not like the way in which it is captured and compressed on to miniDV tape but this doesn't mean that I am now going to go out there and tell everyone how crappy the camera is, because it is not. It just doesn't fit for me. I am not ready or willing to deal with HDV but not because of any biases ... simply because I do not like the workflow and properties of HDV. Purely personal choice, but a choice that I encourage everyone looking into things like this to find out for themselves as opposed to learning through the grapevine.

Maybe the new HDX will produce pictures that will be far better than what the Sony can provide ( the DVCPROHD format on paper certainly allows for this as compared to HDV), but can we at least see the new camera before making any negative comments about the Sony cams (in regards to comparisons of both).

I LOVE THIS SITE!!! ;D
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

Hey mgalvan,

I agree once again -- it's all about what works for you and what you feel comfortable with. What didn't you like about the HDV? Was it concern about compression?

I would say that if I owned a DVX I wouldn't have bought an FX1 to replace it, no doubt. But as I was buying my first cam, I decided to take the plunge, and it definitely hit the spot!

I can't wait for an alternate format to come out; it'll be interesting to shoot identical footage with both cams and convert to identical formats and see which one is better/worse and if you can tell the difference or pick which cam shot which footage.

One thing I do know, though, is even the cheapest 1 hr. DVCPROHD tape is like $45 compared to $8 mini-DV:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=302235&is=REG
And they currently only sell them in multiples of 10! Yikes. $450 bucks.

But I would hope we'll see at least a small price break if they release a new cam designed for "us" (the sub $10k group).
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

[quote author=Hyperbolic link=board=sony;num=1109569214;start=0#0 date=02/27/05 at 21:40:14]I know that you've made a career of supporting Panasonic, and more power to you -- they make great equipment that I like using. But I think now I'm starting to doubt your fairness and I'm wondering if you're willing to stretch the truth. [/quote]
Hyperbolic, I appreciate the tone you took in most of the post, and I understand where you're coming from. The "stretch the truth" thing bothers me, but had that not been in there, I would have agreed with most of what you wrote, and only said that I'm looking at it from a different perspective.

For the record, I haven't made a "career" out of supporting Panasonic products. I've been in film & video for about 17 years now, and I've owned exactly one Panasonic camera -- the DVX. I shot almost exclusively Sony prior to that, and even last year I shot or produced spots using the DSR300, DSR250, CineAlta, and other Sony products. I shot two awful DV movies on the VX1000 and DSR200.

I became a DVX supporter because of the product, not because of the company, although the more I see of the company the more difficult it becomes to separate them, and the more I become a supporter of them. And I have become less enamored with Sony the more I examine their products, especially given the glaring differences in thought processes between them, which has been well elucidated elsewhere.

I'm here to say that HDV is pretty amazing -- on mini-DV tapes I get a beautiful 1440x1080 picture.
Click to expand...
And I agree with you. I have called the HDV picture "jaw dropping". When viewed on a high-def set it is flat-out amazing what that camera is capable of, especially given the price tag.

But stating as fact that "a better way" to record HD is on the way from Panasonic assumes a LOT. It's not like P2 technology is a proven staple of the industry!
Click to expand...
Ah, you misunderstood me. I was not referring to P2. I was referring to DVCPRO-HD. And there's no assuming at all -- DVCPRO-HD has been around for four years now. It's a proven, existing format, established in networks and television stations, and seriously I don't think anyone can begin to argue that it's better in basically every practical way: a 4:2:2, 100-megabit, discrete-frame-compression system, vs. a 25-megabit, 4:2:0, long-form-GOP recording system... there's no contest. Even though HDV does enjoy a slightly higher luma sampling grid, the overall data recorded in DVCPRO-HD is far superior.

That is what I was referring to.

P2 remains to be seen as to whether it's overall "better". In many ways it unquestionably is -- one of the biggest doubts I have about HDV is the potential of getting burned by a dropout when you can least afford it. P2 will never have a dropout, it's instantaeous capture, indestructible, provides for pre-roll (i.e., the camera can be recording for two or three minutes before you tell it to start recording!) There are many, many advantages to P2 over tape. However, there is a significant cost disadvantage. As Derek Serra said, he's off in South Africa making a documentary and shooting 100 hours of footage -- P2 is probably not the right way to go about shooting that, $5 DV tapes are probably a much more reasonable way to go.

But again, I wasn't talking about P2, I was talking about DVCPRO-HD vs. HDV.


HDV is great, too -- that's why Canon, JVC, and Sony are all on board. And I've used it a lot myself and found it wonderful!
Click to expand...
Well, to each his own. I have used it extensively, and I can say this -- if I didn't know for a fact that a far superior format was just around the corner, I'd be right there with you, proclaiming that HDV is THE single biggest advancement in camcorder development since the original DV. But with the issues that are there, and with the potential to get "bitten" by HDV (meaning, whether by dropout or by variable frame resolution, etc); vs. the known, proven, guaranteed delivery medium of DVCPRO-HD, I believe that HDV is not great. I think it's brilliant but flawed.

Make no mistake, I believe it's an absolutely amazing technology -- high-def imagery on a $4 DV tape, and it's here now, it's on the market now, and it's affordable now. I just don't trust it for my work.

Again, I'll say it again -- if I didn't know for a fact that a much better format was right around the corner, I'd be sold on HDV. I originally pre-ordered a Z1, remember. But after using the FX1 for a week, and after hearing that Panasonic was producing a DVCPRO-HD camera, I canceled the Z1 order.

you're taking speculation and inferences about Panasonic's future cam and insinuating they're fact.
Click to expand...
Well, no, I'm taking fact and insinuating that it's fact. Now, I am also gambling, that's true, that Panasonic won't blow it. I think that's a safe bet, but it is a gamble, you're right.

However, I don't see how I lose. Let's say Panasonic introduces their camera, and it's a $10,000 disaster -- let's pretend it has the same stupid one-CCD design that JVC used, and their 24P mode is a stupid frame-resampling technique, so it shoots 30p and drops one frame per six to make a fake 24p. I would say "no thanks", drop it, and I could always just buy the Z1 that day. So how do I lose? How does anyone lose, by waiting six weeks to see what the response will be?

Now, if you have paying work between now and then, paying HD work, I have said repeatedly "get the camera now, book the work now". If Panasonic comes out with a killer camera, one that has three 2/3" CMOS CCDs, shoots 1080/24p with interchangeable lenses, and costs $5,000 -- well, you could always dump the Z1 on ebay and recover most if not all your cost (between that and the work you'd booked).


You're also ripping on HDV in subtle ways that make it seem as though it's unusable or unprofessional -- but it isn't.
Click to expand...
I'm trying not to "rip" on anything. I try to keep my discussions based on, or grounded in, fact, and let people draw their own opinions on whether those facts apply to them.

If I point out that HDV is capable of losing 15 frames due to the tiniest dropout on tape, I don't consider that "ripping" on the format, I consider it pointing out something that people may very well wish to be made aware of. And that that dropout may not occur the first time you play the tape, but maybe the second or the third or the tenth, and once it's gone, it's gone forever. Or it may occur when you play the footage back out to tape, or clone the tape. Granted the occurrence is rare, but the devastation to your footage can be overwhelming if it hits during a vital take (the oft-quoted scenario being a dropout during the wedding vows).

Furthermore, the very nature of long-GOP acquisition means that image artifacts such as variable resolution cannot be avoided entirely. I have seen things on the JVC which would make your hair stand on end, and that has only a six-frame GOP -- I'll have to dig up the golf course footage. There are going to come times when people get bitten by this artifact and they are going to be hating life when it happens.

These are two things that would never happen with a frame-based codec, such as DVCPRO-HD (or even MPEG-IMX, Sony's professional MPEG system which doesn't use a GOP at all).
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

And it's most likely here to stay (just like the DVX!).
Click to expand...
Well, there's some debate possible on that. The landscape is littered with short-lived formats. I still don't think there's enough consumer interest in HD in general to support a consumer HD format, which leaves the format in the hands of production professionals. And once they have a chance to compare, HDV may be found lacking. Or it may triumph. There is certainly room for debate.

My main problem with HDV isn't necessarily the format, as I've often said I quite look forward to JVC's 1080/24p 3-CCD camera. I have specific problems with the FX1/Z1 being used as a "filmmaker's" camera. I think those that are adopting it now, for those purposes, are going to be seriously disappointed when they see what Panasonic's coming up with. I know that people are looking at the Z1/FX1 and thinking that it's such a great leap forward, but I can't help but think that it's about to be rendered irrelevant, just as the PD150/PD170 was rendered irrelevant as a filmmaker's camera with the introduction of the DVX. That's not a biased opinion, that's just what happened. Even InDigEnt, who had produced many movies on the PD150, dropped it and switched to the DVX.

I believe the same thing will happen with the FX1/Z1. They're excellent high-def interlaced cameras, and as I've said before, if you're shooting something that demands the high-def "reality" look, there's really nothing else like 'em. But for "filmmaking", yes people are currently working around with resizing and cineframe and all that stuff, but once genuine high-def 24P hits the shelves, I do think there will be a clear, distinct, and obvious choice. Don't you?

Granted, Panasonic may "blow it", but I really don't think they will. And I can't imagine what anyone loses by just waiting to see, before committing $5,000.

I don't want to flame anyone here.
Click to expand...
I don't think you have. Compared to some of the roastings I get on other boards, you were very calm and measured (although I don't appreciate the implications that I'm stretching the truth... I just prefer to state it that you and I are seeing things from a different perspective). I hope you can see where I'm coming from better now.

I just want to make sure the HDV = unusable rumors have a response, and most importantly, I want us to beware of the claims that Panasonic's answer WILL assuredly be better.
Click to expand...
HDV is definitely not unusable. Hand me an HDV-aware FireStore, and that solves my dropout concern. I'm still concerned about the variable-resolution issue, but I know enough about how MPEG-2 works to know when it'll arise and take care to avoid it. For certain uses the HDV cameras will be *better* than a P2 camera, no doubt. HDV has its use. I don't think filmmaking/commercial production are it, however, compared to what's coming. And 85% (okay, that's probably conservative, let me change it to 98%) of the users on this board would probably identify themselves as "filmmakers".

Talking up P2 is all guesswork right now.
Click to expand...
Well, again, respectfully I disagree. P2 is an existing solution with product already on the market, with the SPX800. It's an existing established workflow. It's a different workflow than tape/capture, but it's already out there, the tools already exist and are being sold to news stations across the country.

What's guesswork is: what features will the camera have? And will they be better than what we've already got? Will it actually be a better camera than the Z1, when all things are considered? That we don't know.

But surely you recognize that just the prospect of HD/24p is tantalizing. That's the magic combination. Nobody bothered to shoot films on HD until the CineAlta was introduced. It was the combination of HD and 24P that started the revolution in modest-budget filmmaking and television production.

So it may well be with the prosumer market -- a high-def 24P camera, with 4:2:2 color and no GOP, and editing stations that are already fully integrated and fully supported... that's what we've already been promised. No speculation, that's the promise that's already been made. And it's just six weeks away from being announced.

I have no doubt that you are enthralled with your camera, and will do superb work with it. We all thought Matt McDermitt's work was amazing, and one of his videos was done on a GL2 before he got the DVX.

But I'm projecting just 8 weeks into the future and looking backwards. How happy would an aspiring filmmaker be who just shelled out $3400 on a PD150 on April 10, 2002... and then he went to NAB and saw the DVX. If I was the PD150 owner, I'd be a little annoyed. I could try to content myself with the idea that I could always use Magic Bullet, or some other thing, but the truth is that camera would never be capable of what I wished I would have gotten. And as time went on and the DVX was proven, I'd get more resentful. At least until I sold my PD150 and got a DVX.

I predict that similar feelings will emerge regarding the FX1/Z1. I do believe they're excellent cameras, but not for the audience that's buying them. For a live studio situation they'd be *perfect* -- especially with uncompressed analog output. But for filmmaking? They're not the best choice. And if Panasonic delivers on their promise, I think a lot of FX1/Z1 owners are going to be wishing that they'd just waited a little longer.

Do you disagree?
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I totally agree with you Barry.

People are so anxious to get this HD/24p combination. When Sony played their cards, although it didn't fulfill 24p, it did fulfill HD resolution and to some, that tipped the hat into making a purchase. But yes, once Panasonic releases their cam, I'm sure buyer's remorse will rear its ugly head (for those looking for a cam that fulfilled these requiresments)

[quote author=Hyperbolic link=board=sony;num=1109569214;start=0#7 date=02/28/05 at 10:05:17]Hey mgalvan,

I agree once again -- it's all about what works for you and what you feel comfortable with.  What didn't you like about the HDV?  Was it concern about compression?  
 
[/quote]

Yes hyperbolic, compression and lack of native support for FCP were what deterred me away from the FX1 and Z1 as well as lack of true 24p (I ended up purchasing the Canon XL2). Though the HDV footage looked wonderful when I tested out the camera, I kept in mind what went into creating the image (what kind of compression used) and ultimately felt it wouldn't work for me. Plus, HD wasn't nearly as important as 24p to me as I would be using this for filmmaking and event videography. But now what Panasonic is getting ready to offer is something that DOES fit what I am looking for along most of the criteria I have for a camera. Knowing this, I await the official word from them ... again, its not that HDV was bad, it just didn't fit what I was looking for in terms of acquisition for the format. The new Panny seems to indeed do though, making my recent XL2 purchase feel questionable now, even though I use it to make money. Interesting times ....

I REALLY LOVE THIS SITE!!!
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1109569214;start=0#9 date=02/28/05 at 10:51:45]
But for filmmaking?  They're not the best choice.  And if Panasonic delivers on their promise, I think a lot of FX1/Z1 owners are going to be wishing that they'd just waited a little longer.

Do you disagree?[/quote]

I do. Some of my reasons:

1) HDV media affordability for the very low budget filmmaker is a great tipping point. The Panny cam will cost more for DVCPROHD -- heck, a lot of those tapes are like $100! Even the $45 one is a lot. And P2 may be a better economical solution as it's reusable, but we'll see. I like having my tapes as archival backups, don't you?

2) When the DVX came out, a lot of people stopped buying the XL1s and other cams of that nature, and that's fine -- but most folks I know who already owned those cams still enjoyed using them and had no trouble making great work with them. Did they regret the XL1 purchase? Nope. And I doubt we will, either, assuming the Panny cam is in the same market.

3) Speaking of market, if it costs thousands more than the FX1 + a Beachtek, I would be skeptical that the new Panny will do what the DVX did in terms of taking over. Look, I can get the FX1/Beachtek for like $3500. I can get cheap mini-DV media. Until I'm a total badass, why would I want to spend thousands more than that on a cam that's also gonna ring up serious media expenses? If the new HD DVX is over $5K, my humble opinion is that it won't overwhelm its competitors -- there just won't be enough reasons to justify the extra cost.

4) 1080i is pretty widespread. Mark Cuban's HDNet is 1080i, and he's shown a propensity for sniffing out the best solution for the long term, so I wouldn't assume 720p is gonna dominate or anything. Are any networks using 720P? My understanding is that like 80% of HD is 1080i right now...

5) Assuming that's the case, and assuming HD DVD players take a few years to become the norm (which is something you've often mentioned), it seems like we're looking at at least a few more years of producing largely SD-based content and possibly some 1080i content for HDTV. If the FX1/Z1 can already make nice SD content as well as great 1080i content, why would it go away? It sure seems to me it's covering all our bases.

5) You always point out that the DVX isn't going away. I think the Sony HDV cams are competitive with the DVX in terms of making great SD content at the same price (as I detailed in another post), so as long as there's room for the DVX, there's room for the FX1/Z1. They offer different advantages and you just have to pick what you like best. Of course, I'll take the cam that's also forward-compatible, but that's just me.

On dropouts: I have experienced a dropout (1 in about 30 hours of footage), so I know they exist, but that kind of ratio is so low that I totally trust the cam. Heck, *I* make mistakes that result in the loss of a lot more takes/footage than 1 half-second over 30 hours.

Panasonic won't blow it -- I am sure of that. But I don't think they've got the edge they had with the DVX and I feel very confident the FX1/Z1 won't be obsolete under any circumstances. It'll be fun to see!
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I hope on February 1st, 2006, we remember these conversations and "Who Said What" and "Who supported Who" so some can relish in the fact they were correct and others can eat their words. *smile*

I think I'll start a new thread.

- Shannon W. Rawls
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

Before I respond, let me say that I appreciate the tone you're taking in this debate. I hope you'd acknowledge that I'm not trying to "stretch the truth", as I know I'm not accusing you of anything similar. My opinions are based on what I know and how I work, and I try to make that clear.

[quote author=Hyperbolic link=board=sony;num=1109569214;start=0#11 date=02/28/05 at 12:28:36]And P2 may be a better economical solution as it's reusable, but we'll see.  I like having my tapes as archival backups, don't you?[/quote]
Archival is one of the biggest concerns I have about the P2 recording system. I've got boxes and boxes of DV tapes, and yes I've had to dig into them to pull footage off, months or years after I thought the products were "done". So yes, having tape (or something comparable) would be excellent, and P2 cards are not going to be what you'd want to use.

Right now I'm thinking a 65-cent DVD-R will back up a 4gb card, but I don't know if DVD-Rs are going to prove to have adequate archival properties. A $150 300-gb hard disk would back up 75 4gb cards, so that's pretty darn cheap, but there's something that doesn't feel "right" about using a hard disk as an archive medium.

Did they regret the XL1 purchase?  Nope.   And I doubt we will, either, assuming the Panny cam is in the same market.
Click to expand...
Well, you do have a point -- "regret" was probably too harsh a word. Just because a new product comes out, doesn't mean the existing product "stops working". As long as it keeps paying the bills, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Again, though, it depends on what you just said -- if it's "in the same market." I would contend that the DVX basically created a new market for itself, 24P video was certainly revolutionary and has changed the way I produce content. I still have four movie cameras here, but I haven't used one in the last year (except for the film vs. DVX sections of the DVD). I used video sparingly prior to that, and shot most projects on film. After the DVX arrived, it became much less necessary to spend for film. Even though the DVX was priced the same as the Sony, it really did change the market.

Panasonic may have a similar impact for the low-priced HD market, that remains to be seen. That is an unknown. At least for the next six weeks, after that we'll know what we're dealing with.  

3) Look, I can get the FX1/Beachtek for like $3500.  I can get cheap mini-DV media.  Until I'm a total badass, why would I want to spend thousands more than that on a cam that's also gonna ring up serious media expenses?  
Click to expand...
Well, while your point is understood, I'm not sure I agree that it's relevant. You could get a GS400 with a Beachtek for about $1700, but does that make it a viable contender against a DVX? It's not in the same class, not in the same league. It's less expensive, yes. But it's not the same thing at all. While some people may be satisfied with the audio quality of an FX1 using a Beachtek adapter, I doubt many audio professionals would be.

If the new HD DVX is over $5K, my humble opinion is that it won't overwhelm its competitors -- there just won't be enough reasons to justify the extra cost.  
Click to expand...
See, there is where you and I totally disagree. We don't have any idea what the extra features are! How can you say there won't be enough reasons? You don't know what the reasons are. As an example, let's say that for $5,000 they put out a 2/3" CMOS-chip 1080/24p camera with on-board hard disk recording and variable frame rate scanning. Would there be enough reasons to justify the extra cost? Hell yes. Maybe not for absolutely everyone, but to that end I point out that Panasonic still sells plenty of GS400s. Not every camera will suit every person, that's for sure.

I'll go along with this: if Panasonic put out a camera that was basically the same as the FX1/Z1, but offering 720p instead of 1080i, then yes, it had darn well better be priced competitively. But if it offers more more more, like the DVX did (not just 24p, which we were expecting, but also 30p, a true wide-angle lens, 60i, different gamma curves, the best audio of any prosumer camera, and on and on and on...), then I'd say it's going to have a major impact.

But in those cases, we're both speculating. Your take seems to say that there wouldn't be extra features to justify the cost, my take is that I'm betting there will be. And, keep in mind we don't know what the cost is yet! The camera itself may very well fulfill Jan's earlier statement that it'll be "priced competitive with the Z1".

4) 1080i is pretty widespread.
Click to expand...
That it is. Most of the networks are broadcasting 1080.
Are any networks using 720P?  My understanding is that like 80% of HD is 1080i right now...
Click to expand...
Fox and ABC are 720p, I believe. But they're able to broadcast either. And whether they're broadcasting 1080i or not, that doesn't change that people are using 24p for dramatic, narrative, television, sitcom, and commercial production. And I've heard tell that VariCams are outselling CineAltas by a substantial margin.

1080i is common in the US and Japan. Europe looks like they're going 720/50p. Other countries remain to be seen. But the US also supports 720/24p, 720/30p, and 720/60p.

If the FX1/Z1 can already make nice SD content as well as great 1080i content, why would it go away?  It sure seems to me it's covering all our bases.  
Click to expand...
I'm not saying that it in and of itself will go away, I'm saying that I doubt there's enough demand from the consumer segment of the market to drive adoption of the HDV format as a mass-produced product line. Which leaves professionals as the main group demanding a low-cost HD solution. And right now HDV is it, but what if they find the alternative far superior, as I do? If they do, so that the pros are buying DVCPRO-HD gear (and guaranteeing themselves compatibility across the entire product line, top to bottom, from the VariCam to the HDX400 down to the HDX100), then where will be the impetus for them to continue buying HDV?

Existing HDV gear won't "disappear", of course. But I wonder about the long-term viability of the format. It may succeed, it may flop -- many new formats flop. The jury is completely out on that.

They offer different advantages and you just have to pick what you like best.  Of course, I'll take the cam that's also forward-compatible, but that's just me.
Click to expand...
And that is exactly my point. We may see it from opposite sides, but we're looking at the exact same thing.

Heck, *I* make mistakes that result in the loss of a lot more takes/footage than 1 half-second over 30 hours.
Click to expand...
In my experience they were also rare. I'm not saying there's a plague of them, I'm just saying that they exist and one needs to be aware of the consequences. I also freely admit that a FireStore HDV would totally eliminate any concern about dropouts.

But I don't think they've got the edge they had with the DVX and I feel very confident the FX1/Z1 won't be obsolete under any circumstances.  It'll be fun to see!
Click to expand...
I totally agree. The FX1/Z1 are an amazing accomplishment, and I think they definitely have a place in the production landscape. We may disagree on what it's best suited for, or how it could be improved on, but I'm not going to say it's a bad camera. I think the format has shortcomings, yes, and I think it can be improved upon. And I think the lack of 24p was a major mistake on Sony's part, and left the door wide open for Panasonic to make a killer product.

Now we just have to see if they do.
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1109569214;start=0#13 date=02/28/05 at 13:44:37]Before I respond, let me say that I appreciate the tone you're taking in this debate.  I hope you'd acknowledge that I'm not trying to "stretch the truth", as I know I'm not accusing you of anything similar.  [/quote]

D'oh! Sorry. I meant to take that back after hearing your detailed posts. :)

I enjoyed the debate as well and I look forward to seeing what the future holds for digital filmmaking...
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I am very sorry, I made a mistake. By saying "HD" I meant "HDV". Now I know better.
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I have enjoyed the debate you two men have allowed the rest of us in this forum to have access to. The thing that has really pleased me is the tone that both of you have gentlemanly maintained. Its cool to find adults communicating this way. I have to applaud Hyperbole for having brought up very good points regarding the Sony FZ1/FX1's review by Barry. I, like Hyperbole, also was very surprised to hear what seemed like a very negative review by Mr. Barry. I have gotten such dependable information from Barry that I also respect his insight into our field and listen attentively to his words. I was however dissilusioned by his review of the Sony cameras and also felt a strong partiality towards Panasonic from him. Because I still trust his opinion I put off ordering the Sony Cameras. Having read all this thread, he has clarified his stance on the Sony products.

Barry, you have explained your opinion extremely well and I agree overall with your wait-and-see stance. I will also sit on the sidelines and see what Panasonic has to offer in the coming months. I can afford to wait because shooting short films is my hobby not my livelyhood (I am an editor). I strongly thank both of you gentlemen for this discourse. :)
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

Yeah Can I second that.

As a 100 and 100A user, I've kept up with Barry's comment for the better part of 18 months, bought the Book/DVD etc. and have been eternally grateful for the info. It's a tribute to this board that these sorts of intelligent discusions can take place!

And while having been a bit surprised by what *seemed* like overly positive responses from Barry, with clarification I totally agree with what's been said...

I'm about to shoot a multicam Obs doco for six weeks using HVR-Z1's and have been a bit sceptical, having had such a good year with the DVX (notwithstanding a wonderful week with the cine alta, and a dire, nightmare godawful week with a PD150 - never going back there ever ever ever!).

Professionally, at this precise moment in time, HDV is my only choice for affordable, futureproofing HD Capture, and, having spent a few hours with it, the Z1 seems a genuinely great camera with some fantastic features - many of which are a direct response to the DVX - Profle settings anyone? ;)

While personally I'm dying to see the new Panny offering, I fall into that small section of people for whom at this moment HDV and the Z1 'appears' to be a godsend! The ability to shoot true 16:9 1080i, master in SD and future proof for overseas sales later down the line (Avid Adrenaline HD upgrade is not far away!) is just fantastic.

But persoanlly I await Panny HD with baited breath...
 
Re: Barry: are you sure you're playing fair?

I can attest that a lot of people await the Panny HD with baited breath ...

And it is partly because of what you said ... "HDV is my only choice for affordable, futureproofing HD capture."

The fact of the matter is that HDV is really the only choice we have right now for affordable HD acquisition. But with Panasonic entering this arena, people finally at least have some choices. Always welcome :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top