backup to HDV?

alpi69

alpi69

Veteran
archivation still is a concern to me.
we just made a demoreel and it took quite a while to gather the images. some we even needed to take from VHS etc. anyway all was on tape. and it is so handy to store things onto. if i think how many harddrives i will need over the years (RAID 5 needs 3 at least) i might have to rent extra space.....

an idea would be to back-up to HDV. the footage would not be not untouched, but still a HD format. maybe there are even software encoders out there that optimize the compression (like a 2-pass VBR HDV encoder)?
 
Yes you should theorehical be able to arcive the material as HDV. The GOP should benefit for post encoding.

But you will still destroy other benifits of the DVCPROHD material.

So burn on DVDs should be a better options.
 
hej svensker,

you mean burn the files on DVD (HD-DVD, BlueRay or whatever)?

i know of that route, but are we really going to rely on these then? what if you have a bad batch of DVDs? happened to me 2 times already. but i never had a bad batch of tapes.

I am not talking as my normal archive during a project.
i know HDV would destroy some parts of the DVCPro image, but it would be a very nice backup mode for _done_ projects. So if someone in 10 years wants to get a look it would do fine.
 
Tape formats for long term archive is just as dicey... find a 2" machine these days, or a 1", etc. 3/4" U-Matic is starting to be hard to find. Tape is also subject to the environment and can rust over time, drop outs etc. Drives suffer the same over time - like finding an old Omega drive...

The question is really about archiving the final piece for viewing or archiving all the sources for a potential re-purposing in the future?

These are all the same issues facing studios with their material - and guess what? Writing out to 35mm film is still the solution used for deep archive of valuable assets.

I would suggest you do both - archive all sources to DVD as files. The same with the finished program and you can still do a HDV version of the final program to HDV with the understanding that you are going from a 100MB/s HD format to an even further compressed format of 25MB/s or MB/s (4 to 5 times more compressed).

Michael
 
The best archival advice that I can offer is that, regardless of the medium you choose, remember the concept of "reliability by redundancy". If it is really important, make multiple copies and store them in different locations.
 
Backup to HDV really doesn't make any sense from DVCPRO-HD... the tape format requires an HDV camera to read it - so you're really talking about MPEG-2 optical disk storage. For data vs. bitrate you could do significantly better with a more advanced codec at HDV bitrates (H.264, WMV).

Your suggestion is really backing up your DVCPRO-HD footage to a delivery codec. If you're going to do this, you might as well just "back it up" to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray when the formats become available.

-Spiff
 
If you're talking about going out to tape, why not go to a data tape format like DLT or SAIT... that way you preserve 100% of the original quality, as well as keeping the file structure so you don't have to re-import from tape...
 
Yes I.T. long term storage, like DLT, is probably best for long term archiving. But I think the fear that every one anticipates here is the fact that 20 years down the road, those technologies to read said I.T. based tapes might not be around. Take for example the 8 inch floppies. I dare you to find something to read those. And if you do find a drive, you also have to find the right operational computer with the right OS to plug it in: A Radio Shack TRS-6000 for example? That's a tad more then 20 years old, give or take. (Oh boy, trip down memory lane!)

Anyway, such is the world of technological evolution. I'm pretty sure standard DVDs won't be around in 30 years. Then again, maybe they will. After all there is a widespread install base. Who knows? Besides, one only wants to archive finished edited products, not all the rushes. Most broadcasters, and correct me if I'm wrong, will not keep all tapes with everything that's been shot. Do you imagine the physical storate space it would take?

In other words, keep what's needed, and transfer to another media as technology evolves. Face it, it will happen! Today's MiniDV and DVDs will most likely be replaced with something else in a decade or two. Make the best of it now, use redundant storage workflow. Keep your precious footage in at least two separate locations, and follow the guidelines for long term storage to maximise the life expectancy of the media. Contrary to what we are led to believe, burned CDs and DVDs (not pressed), will not last for 100 years!
 
Well, yeah, but -- it's all irrelevant. Because you're archiving the data as DATA, you can always refresh your archive by moving it to whatever the new current standard is. Let's say you choose DLT for today. Five years from now DLT gets replaced by Holographic -- you can always copy the data from your DLTs and archive onto a holographic sheet. The data doesn't change. It's not like in the old days of laserdisc and 1" and other formats where players cease to exist, and copying means re-encoding to a new format... here it's just raw data.

And because of that, you're in a very, very big boat -- every network manager at every IT department in the country is in the same boat you are. As new archive/backup solutions become available, they'll be equally applicable to your HVX footage as they are to an IBM blade server, etc.
 
Barry,

Not to be argumentative, but I have Apple Movie files from a pre-quicktime avid that is also just data and also impossible to play. Now we are in the situation where not only are we worried about hardware becoming unavailable... we also need to worry about the software that makes all of that data usable. As you know, that data needs a codec and a software player to be useful.

I say we just burn all of our hvx footage out to 35mm film and store that! :)

I'm joking of coarse, but there is a reason I Love Lucy looks so good to this day as I was reminded of while sitting in the lobby of my favorite telecine house watching it on a 60" plasma screen.

Its going to be a difficult set of solutions to grapple with, but I for one am excited as hell and grateful to be working in this business at this time, we are the ones that get to write the book on how all of this is done and will be done for the next few hundred years until neural imaging takes over for digital (or whatever the next big thing will be). I think it's exciting and in a masochistic way, a lot of fun.

-David C. Smith
LA / OC D.P.
 
Just a quick history update - Avid was never a native QuickTime editing system and Avid existed before QuickTime. The Avid Media Composer 1 developed in 1987 and released in December of 1989 used its own 4bit and 8bit video encoding.

But I agree with you on all those points - I have Clint Eastwood's original Film Composer and a lot of the footage sitting on Panasonic Phase change optical drives (remember those?) and if that CPU decides to die, it will be very difficult if impossible to find drivers and support for that format.

Although one can say transfer to the new format, imagine the costs involved with huge libraries like studios and stock agencies - that is why standardization is so important for deep archive on many fronts - the format of the files, the storage medium, the hardware that reads the storage medium, the drivers that mount the hardware, etc.

It will be interesting to see how well family photos are archived and available to future generations that are shot on digital cameras. Consider the fact that many people don't back up (mass consumers at large) where all of this will get lost.

There have been some interesting articles on digital photos and the fact the in film even the funny goofy pictures were kept because of the technology and that years later, those made up the more interesting and memory inducing photos. Today, the delete/start again access to these shots removes that from the process. It is nice sometime to see the work that went into an artist's work and not have it lost -

My 2 cents.

Michael
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, yeah, but -- it's all irrelevant. Because you're archiving the data as DATA, you can always refresh your archive by moving it to whatever the new current standard is. Let's say you choose DLT for today. Five years from now DLT gets replaced by Holographic -- you can always copy the data from your DLTs and archive onto a holographic sheet. The data doesn't change. It's not like in the old days of laserdisc and 1" and other formats where players cease to exist, and copying means re-encoding to a new format... here it's just raw data.

And because of that, you're in a very, very big boat -- every network manager at every IT department in the country is in the same boat you are. As new archive/backup solutions become available, they'll be equally applicable to your HVX footage as they are to an IBM blade server, etc.
Click to expand...
It's never that easy, as filmstox put it. Imagine transfering all that data. The time and money issue alone is of ludicrous proportions.

Normal I.T. data, I know because I was an I.T. manager for a large engineering firm, is not as voluminous as multimedia content. Exclude the multimedia content, most data is just text, so to speak, and inherently smaller then multimedia content. Most I.T. Managers deal with just that, small data.

I can only imagine years of accumulated data in deep archive, to be transfered because, say DLTs are no longer available. What a nightmare. I know, I lived through it once, and we were just talking a few dozen gigabytes then.

Data is data, yes, but data that needs some form of interpretation via hardware AND software. Without legacy equipment to read legacy data stored on legacy medium, you're pretty much skrewed!

Yes we need standards! Alas even standards don't necessarily pass the tests of time!
 
In a sense, ironicly speaking, probably the best technology for LONG term storage is an old technology, as stated in this thread, called film. :evil: Although film has it's issues as time slowly but surely does it's thing.

PS: I never thought much about an old 8mm projector I had way back when. In the days where videography was not on my mind. Only to curse myself for selling it at a garage sale a decade ago... Damn, now I can't look at my dearly departed grandparent's films. eBay, here I come! :undecided
 
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