backing out of gigs you agreed to take when higher paying gigs come along

[adkimery]

Ok, you guys got me with some of your examples. I didn't originally consider staying loyal to a 1 day gig and passing up a month's worth of work to do so, or a wedding vs. career-booster movie gig.

The idea of finding a suitable replacement is cool, but just for the sake of argument I thought of a couple issues. What if your unique vision/working method is what someone wanted, and any replacement, no matter how good, is simply not going to be YOU? Also, again with our original example of a $500/day guy working for $200, well now you have to find ANOTHER guy of that skill level/caliber (who, likewise, probably commands a similar rate) who will work for the same rate in your stead, or else the replacement would be a less experienced person, which is not what the client originally signed on for.

If it's that importnat to have that guy then find a way to pay him his typical rate (assuming money is the only reason he's moving to the other gig) and/or reschedule your shoot for the next time he's available and hope it doesn't fall through again. Just because you don't get the guy you want doesn't mean great things can't happen. I mean, Molly Ringwald reported turned down the lead role in Pretty Woman.

 

[ryan brown]

Proper etiquette, as far as I'm concerned, is to of course do whatever you can to be there, and if you absolutely can't, you find a replacement. I've been in L.A. almost a year now, and on every set I've been on that's what's been the norm.

True story: I was on a 14 day ultra low indie feature as a 1st AC just last month, and I sh!t you not, L.L. Cool J's assistant called me and said L.L. wanted to know if I could shoot some behind the scenes on his new music video shoot in TWO DAYS. Apparently he saw the behind the scenes I did for riveting entertainment and chris brown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj8aLjWYJj0) and liked my work. Well, I'm not passing that opportunity up... I immediately called the director and told him I wasn't going to be able to make it, but I was going to stay up all night if need be finding a replacement. He was upset with the situation. I found a great replacement whom I knew could do the job, called the director back (who was still upset), apologized again, and told him my replacement would be calling him in 5 minutes. They talked, the director liked him and brought him on board, he did a great job, and when I was finished with the L.L. shoot, things were all cool on the home front and to my surprise, the director hired me back for the remaining 4 days of the shoot. We talked and he said I did what I had to do, I did what I was supposed to do by finding a replacement, and he totally understands.

Here's a couple screen grabs of my yet to be released L.L. shoot (which will be released very soon) for you skeptics (and for my bragging rights):happy::

 

[Marc Villafan]

Ryan, obviously those are Photoshopped.

I call phony! Get the pitchforks out again boys!

Good stuff Ryan!

 

[nosys70]

if money is the yardstick, first it must be made clear why one guy has a price for a gig, and another one has another price, especially if you go under the your usual regular price.
There must be a difference in product/service if the price is different.
You could say that you agree to work on a low cost project, but if something better comes, you will give priority to the best paid job.
so the customer knows he only get what he paid for (your goodwill).
In that case you would obviously ask for a colleague if he can replace you, so you do not drop the customer.

 

[Josh Bass]

So let me ask you this then. . .forget about regular clients, for this question, 'cause my regulars understand typical production rates so not an issue. Let's say a first time client with a lower budget contacts you, and you do say you can do a gig with the provision that you will jump ship for a higher paying gig unless they can match the rate (obviously you won't word it quite so bluntly), how have folks typically reacted in that situation? Again, this would be a first time call from someone you don't know (which is pretty much how all my "less than ideal rate" calls come in). Curious about their reactions. I've never told anyone that, always just taken the gig (if I felt it was worth it) and prayed a conflict didn't arise.

 

[aalleexx]

Dont burn bridges is all I have to say

 

[hscully]

So let me ask you this then. . .forget about regular clients, for this question, 'cause my regulars understand typical production rates so not an issue. Let's say a first time client with a lower budget contacts you, and you do say you can do a gig with the provision that you will jump ship for a higher paying gig unless they can match the rate (obviously you won't word it quite so bluntly), how have folks typically reacted in that situation? Again, this would be a first time call from someone you don't know (which is pretty much how all my "less than ideal rate" calls come in). Curious about their reactions. I've never told anyone that, always just taken the gig (if I felt it was worth it) and prayed a conflict didn't arise.

That's the freelancer's risk in any concern. I don't see any reason to "forewarn" a client that you'll bag out if you get a better gig if you follow the loose guidelines a lot of people here have described. That is, give them enough notice to find someone else or provide a replacement. The implication in taking the lesser gig is that the producer is covered for your position, since you said you'd do it so if you do well to take care of that requirement, you've not hurt them. Otherwise you run the risk of burning a bridge and tarnishing your reputation.

 

[MattinSTL]

I'm surprised anybody would even consider this issue.

A deal's a deal. Period.

If you agree to something with the proviso that you'll take a better offer if it comes along... then the person booking you is a fool if they don't just get somebody else without that stipulation.

I would never refer or associate anyone who handled a gig like that.

"penciled in" means the gig is tentative with "first right of refusal"... EVEN THEN... that's saying a gig isn't guaranteed, but I've agreed to do it, at whatever rate.

"first right of refusal" means that I OWE that person a phone call to say that somebody else wants to book me, so they have to commit to the booking knowing that they'll have to pay me even if the gig is canceled (by them)... at the already agreed rate.

"booked" means the gig is booked... and if they cancel it within 2 days it's half-pay... and within 24 hours it's full pay, at the agreed rate.


If a client breaks the above rules repeatedly... then it's a dynamic situation where my word is only as good as theirs... but I always err on the side of generosity and understanding towards a client vs. them having to accommodate me. If the client breaking the above rules starts costing me $$$ (more than once)... then I'll change the rules and explain to them that if their bookings aren't really bookings then I have to consider them "penciled in" in lieu of proven client bookings getting "first right of refusal".

 

[Josh Bass]

And that was my opinion when I started this thread. But obviously enough folks working in the industry don't necessarily agree (as demonstrated by the myriad responses in this thread), so it makes me rethink things.

 

[KMR]

However if you agree to shoot a wedding, and then get offered a job on a major film that could legitimately enhance your career, well frankly you gotta do what you gotta do. Ideally of course you either give them more than enough advanced noticed of your change in plans or you get a friend that can deliver a comprable product and hand the job over to them, because I believe morally you still do have an obligation to that client. But major opportunities only come around every so often, and I don't think it would be wise to ignore them.

A commitment is a commitment. If you have committed to shooting a wedding, it is YOUR responsibility to BE THERE to do the job. If something else comes along that you want to do instead, and if the original client is not okay with you cancelling or finding a replacement, tough beans. You booked the job, you finish the job. Whatever else you wish you could be doing with your time is not the client's concern. Them's the breaks... If you want the freedom to back out of a job, then make sure your initial agreement gives you that freedom. Otherwise you're being totally unfair to the client. (Doesn't a bride have enough stress without worrying if her videographer is going to cancel at the last minute?)

 

[adkimery]

I guess I never say never because I don't believe in absolutes. I mean, if you are an assistant editor on TV Show X and TV Show Y calls saying they want to bring you on as an editor (a position you've been trying to transition into for years) and you don't take it you are nuts, IMO. Of course you do your best to not leave show X high and dry (even if this means working both gigs for a time) but you make the jump because you never know when you'll get that opportunity again. Sure the post crew could be crunched temporarily until your replacement is fully up to speed but if any of the crew harbor ill will towards you for making the jump they are dicks, IMO, because everyone in this industry has dreams they should be running down.

On the other hand if the situation is more of a lateral move, like you are an AE on a show and a comparable show calls looking for an AE, then justifying moving is more difficult so unless there are extenuating circumstances I wouldn't do it.


And before anyone goes, "well how would you feel..." I have been on the receiving end of someone leaving on short notice (we'd be working a few weeks already and he called up one night and said he was starting a new gig the next day) and while I don't begrudge him for leaving for the better gig I was pissed that no effort was made by him to find a replacement or anything like that.

If you agree to something with the proviso that you'll take a better offer if it comes along... then the person booking you is a fool if they don't just get somebody else without that stipulation.

Or the person doing the booking has more time than money and is willing to be flexible because they don't have the funds to pay the going rate for what they want/need. I've worked on a number of lower budget projects and we were able to get some services (like audio mixing, VFX work, etc.) done at discounted rates by great facilities/people but the stipulations were always that the work would be done during non-peak hours and if a client paying regular or rush rates needed to extended their session then we would get put on the back burner. Made since to us and we got quality of work done that was beyond our budget. Now, if there are hard deadlines looming then this is certainly roll of the dice that shouldn't be taken lightly but even then I think it's up to the people doing the hiring to have a contingency plan in place if they decide to go with the high risk/high reward option.


Of course my perspective is largely one from post where sometimes schedules can be more flexible than on the production side where many cast and crew members must converge in the same place at the same time.

 

[ryan brown]

I'm surprised anybody would even consider this issue.

A deal's a deal. Period.

If you agree to something with the proviso that you'll take a better offer if it comes along... then the person booking you is a fool if they don't just get somebody else without that stipulation.

I would never refer or associate anyone who handled a gig like that.

This was my way of thinking exactly. Then I moved to L.A. to try and make a living in the film industry out here, and things quickly changed. When I was in Dallas, out of ten years of shooting videos, weddings, and corporate events, I never missed a single one, and I was only ever late for 2 gigs because of traffic (and within 30 minutes). IN TEN YEARS OF AT LEAST ONE GIG A WEEK that was my track record. When I said I was going to do something or be somewhere at a certain time, I did it. End of story.

But I'm in a different beast now and I had to adapt to make things work out best for me AND my clients. When you're starting out here in L.A., and booking some lower paying jobs because you need the money, but you know they're probably not going anywhere (but you give it your all on every job no matter what), and then you,re booking some higher paying jobs that can lead to the start of a promising career, you have to make those tough decisions or YOU WON'T MAKE IT OUT HERE. End of story.

It's not just me, either... it's how it is out here and you get a sense of it on every production you're on. Others understand it, and that's why the correct course of action is to find a replacement. My facebook feed constantly has posts popping up from industry workers and producers looking for replacements.

Now, that being said, there are some stipulations that I adhere by: 1. If I'm DP'ing a gig and production already has the ball rolling, there's no backing out or finding a replacement. The director hired ME specifically, and no one else is going to bring to the table exactly what I bring and what the director hired me for. I booked it and I'll be there no matter what.

2. If the difference between the potential double booking is just a couple hundred bucks, there's no backing out. You tell the other job you're already booked. Sorry.

3. If I was shooting weddings, I wouldn't back out no matter what the other job was. While most industry people look down on weddings and don't enjoy doing them, I think there's an unwritten rule you need to live by if you decide to do weddings, and that is: it may not be all that important or fun for you, but for the couple who hired you, it could be the most important day of their lives, and you need to understand and respect that. If not, you don't book weddings in the first place.

I also book some smaller stuff at really low rates, but I tell the person hiring met that at the rate they're offering, if a full paying job pops up I'd have to take it and reschedule theirs. Sometimes they're cool with that and hire me anyway, and sometimes they find someone else. Perfectly fine with me.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter...

 

[keylight]

I guess I never say never because I don't believe in absolutes. I mean, if you are an assistant editor on TV Show X and TV Show Y calls saying they want to bring you on as an editor (a position you've been trying to transition into for years) and you don't take it you are nuts, IMO. Of course you do your best to not leave show X high and dry (even if this means working both gigs for a time) but you make the jump because you never know when you'll get that opportunity again. Sure the post crew could be crunched temporarily until your replacement is fully up to speed but if any of the crew harbor ill will towards you for making the jump they are dicks, IMO, because everyone in this industry has dreams they should be running down.

On the other hand if the situation is more of a lateral move, like you are an AE on a show and a comparable show calls looking for an AE, then justifying moving is more difficult so unless there are extenuating circumstances I wouldn't do it.

I could be wrong, but I got the sense that "gig" means a freelance/short term contract type of job as opposed to an actual salaried job at a company. If that's right, then his discussion is about apples, but you're talking oranges.

When you're a full time employee, giving a couple of weeks notice is expected by both your current employer and your future employer. Your new employer knows you won't be starting for a couple of weeks (at least). They wouldn't expect you to leave your current employer in a bind, just like they wouldn't expect you to leave them in a bind when you finally move on to your next job.

That's very different from "gigs" where you can very quickly loose future work because you come to be seen as unreliable by cancelling last minute.

 

[adkimery]

I could be wrong, but I got the sense that "gig" means a freelance/short term contract type of job as opposed to an actual salaried job at a company. If that's right, then his discussion is about apples, but you're talking oranges.

When you're a full time employee, giving a couple of weeks notice is expected by both your current employer and your future employer. Your new employer knows you won't be starting for a couple of weeks (at least). They wouldn't expect you to leave your current employer in a bind, just like they wouldn't expect you to leave them in a bind when you finally move on to your next job.

That's very different from "gigs" where you can very quickly loose future work because you come to be seen as unreliable by cancelling last minute.

I'm talking about gigs too. Even freelance gigs can go for months depending on the project. The editor on a doc I was assisting on ended up being committed to the project for nearly 12 months. There were some down weeks here and there but all in the all the commitment was almost a year. Even for staff or permalance type gigs the two week window doesn't really exist because it takes time to interview and hire someone new. It could easily take a week or two to just find a replacement and then what are the odds that the production can go two weeks w/o a person in that roll so the replacement can give their two weeks to the job/gig they are leaving? In my experience many/most gigs are looking to hire someone that can be on the job in a matter of days and between gigs starting early or going long it's common for their not to be 'clean breaks' if you will. All the more reason to be up front and honest w/people, IMO.

I've never left anyone high and dry that's paid me money (even going so far as working two full time editing gigs for nearly 3 months) but I think people are being disingenuous when they say that nothing would ever make them break a business commitment. If you are shooting a local commercial for Bob's House of Used Cars and you get a one time offer for your dream job are you really going to turn it down flat w/o even trying to make an alternate arrangement for Bob? If you are working a gig and your kid/mom/sister/etc., is in the hospital in critical condition are you really going to be like, "Well, I'd love to be at your bed side but this used car commercial isn't going to shoot itself"?

I'm not advocating dereliction of duty but it's hard to succeed if you flat out refuse to answer the door on the rare times when opportunity knocks.


-Andrew

 

[Josh Bass]

Hey folks! I got to live what I preached recently. Perhaps you'll find this amusing in a "taking pleasure in my misery" sort of way. Yup, got offered a 4-day job with travel (would have to do all days or no days), had to turn it down for a one-day job that I'd already committed too, then the one day job cancels! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ethics!

 

[Scott F]

I'm surprised anybody would even consider this issue.

A deal's a deal. Period.

If you agree to something with the proviso that you'll take a better offer if it comes along... then the person booking you is a fool if they don't just get somebody else without that stipulation.

Meh, I dunno. I'm looking at the 2012 tax statement from a company I bagged on, versus the one I chose to work for. (very much a Josh Bass, travel-type story) In retrospect, I know I made the right choice.

No, you shouldn't make it a habit of burning bridges, but do you want to climb the ladder of success?

I've heard enough of the type stories above ^ and been part of a few myself. Go for the glory!

 

[Gary Huff]

I'm sure you can find people who blew off a gig for another one that was their stepping stone to something wonderful, and people who blew off a gig and it ruined their career. You have to make the best decisions you can with the information available at the time and hope for the best, really.

I would just say, try not to be a dick, whatever you do.

 

[adkimery]

As long as you can look at yourself in the mirror... and I agree with Gary. Don't be a dick. Opportunities come up at the drop of a hat, that's the way the biz works, but do your honest best not to screw someone over in the process.


-Andrew

 

[Luis Caffesse]

This thread is the perfect example of why I won't book lower rate jobs any more than a week out at the most.
Sure, there are times I'd rather work than not work - but I've found the best way to avoid these kinds of conflicts is to avoid these kinds of conlicts.

If someone wants me for a lower rate gig that I may regret taking, I will turn it down or tell them to check back in the week before their shoot. My best jobs rarely wait till the last second to book, so conflicts are kept to a minimum (for the most part)

 

[bgundu]

Great advice.

This thread is the perfect example of why I won't book lower rate jobs any more than a week out at the most.
Sure, there are times I'd rather work than not work - but I've found the best way to avoid these kinds of conflicts is to avoid these kinds of conlicts.

If someone wants me for a lower rate gig that I may regret taking, I will turn it down or tell them to check back in the week before their shoot. My best jobs rarely wait till the last second to book, so conflicts are kept to a minimum (for the most part)