B/C Camera Purchase advice

abreu-canedo

abreu-canedo

Well-known member
Hi all,

So I know these types of questions can be kind of a pain, so forgive me for asking. But I'm not in a city where I can readily rent this stuff at the moment to try them out, so I was hoping for some feedback.

I'm looking to buy a B/C camera for me to shoot some weddings coming up at the end of this month and into June.

I currently shoot FS700/Odyssey 7Q. I love the 10bit ProRes!! Even in low light

For a second, smaller camera (DSLR?), I was hoping it could also do 10bit color. However, I know that this factor is not the only factor in creating a good image. High dynamic range, great color, variable frame rates and less rolling shuttter are also important factors for me.

I'm in between the A7s (people say good dynamic range and color(when used right)), or Black Magic Pocket cam (10bit prores).

Overall, I need a nice image. I'm not too familiar with the image out of the pocket camera. How does it fair compared to the A7s? The only things that are holding me back from A7s is 8bit and rolling shutter. The latter is not so much in crop 2K mode, but does the A7s being 8bit cripple it from a professional post workflow perspective? (Resolve: log to LUTs, pushing and pulling colors and exposures with masks, etc.)

I would try to shoot a log profile in either of these cameras. Is there any other cameras within the US$2K range that may give me close or superior results to the 10bit ProRes I'm getting from FS700/7Q?

I know there is no clear cut advice, but any help is greatly appreciated.
-Thanks in advance, Rafael
 
The Nikon d750 could be a very good candidate for what you want to do. It is still 8 bit but compared to the other 1k-2k camera you will have very good low light, DR and its rolling shutter is very good in full frame mode.
 
Danielvilliers said:
The Nikon d750 could be a very good candidate for what you want to do. It is still 8 bit but compared to the other 1k-2k camera you will have very good low light, DR and its rolling shutter is very good in full frame mode.
Click to expand...

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the heads up on that Nikon option. Honestly, I hadn't really considered it. I'll have to start researching that some more! The appeal to that is that I'm fully nikkkors on glass so far.
 
Check out the Samsung NX1 too.

The only Blackmagic Design camera I'd consider right now is the BMPCC.
However when the URSA Mini and BMMCC start shipping they'll be worthwhile too.

Personally I'd approach it like this, which is most important to you:
Extreme low light or ultra thin DoF: get A7s
Internal 4K or slow motion but in a much much smaller package than your FS700 setup: get a NX1
Raw or ProResHQ: get BMPCC (or wait for the BMMCC).
 
Thanks Ironfilm,

Yeah, I want to wait for the BM Mini and Micro, but unfortunately they're not out soon enough!! I'm seriously considering the BMPCC, though. Such a good price if it delivers color-wise.

Samuel, thanks for those incredibly informative tests!! In your opinion, are the RAW colors on the BMPCC better, comparable or worst than the colors on the A7s?

ive been looking at various examples on Vimeo, but it's always nice to get feedback from folks who have experience with both.
-Thanks again!
 
In my experience, wedding ceremonies are all too often lit by only one 40 Watt light bulb; for that reason you're probably better off with a Nikon D750 or Sony A7s. Blackmagic cameras have a great image, but not the greatest high ISO performance.
 
abreu-canedo said:
Samuel, thanks for those incredibly informative tests!! In your opinion, are the RAW colors on the BMPCC better, comparable or worst than the colors on the A7s?
Click to expand...

Color is good enough on both, so it's a matter of taste, and therefore subjective.

I ran those tests because we had to decide which camera to use on an important project. I liked a lot how my a7S featured, but we ended shooting with the pocket, which was the favorite of the two directors. The main reason was the highlight roll-off.

The RAW workflow is very taxing, make sure you're ready for the slow and tedious work if you plan to use it routinely. Many BM owners love the RAW image but end up shooting prores because it's more convenient and it's close enough (both of which are good points, but then, if you're going to do this, use the prores samples to compare the cameras) (also, I can't get half-decent colors on Premiere out of that prores, but I haven't had any experience with it outside of these tests, I'm sure it's a matter of learning how to work with it; there must be something simple that I'm missing because nobody else is complaining about this).
 
Im tooling up for a job right now.

All those cameras options - I could buy any of them. Ill probably stick with my FS100 as the bcam for my FS7 for the moment.

I need decent 3/4 audio channels and a small light ideally S35 body.

The FS100 gives that in such a tidy little package. All the other cameras are a complete mess really (once you add XLR and large HDMI somehow) - maybe the GH4/yag

does the Gh4 do 4k 25p?

S
 
Imamacuser said:
In my experience, wedding ceremonies are all too often lit by only one 40 Watt light bulb; for that reason you're probably better off with a Nikon D750 or Sony A7s. Blackmagic cameras have a great image, but not the greatest high ISO performance.
Click to expand...

Total exaggeration. And you can always bring in a set of your own lights. I'm looking to buy some Dedolights, though less as a reason for "more light" as a reason to craft the light into something more interesting. As I find even with my Panasonic GH1 it can cope with most conditions at least.
 
abreu-canedo said:
Is there any other cameras within the US$2K range that may give me close or superior results to the 10bit ProRes I'm getting from FS700/7Q?
Click to expand...
I think you are aiming a little high there...;)

Will this B cam be for another operator or fixed on a tripod?
If you just need it for extra coverage, let's say a fixed wide of the ceremony, most of the already mentioned cameras will do.
You might even throw in sth as cheap as the Nikon D5300, which even lets you check its image via Wifi.
 
First of all, thank you all so much for taking time out of your day to respond in such a helpful way. This is really super helpful! Some great points made here.
--
I totally hear the point about the 40watt bulbs at most venues. Something to consider, and also why the A7s is so appealing, right?! Fortunately for me, this wedding will be in a sun filled location. Actually, I try to make sure that all of my weddings are in places with natural light. If they're not, I charge more! haha. I wouldn't know how poorly the BMPCC handles lowlight from experience, but some online examples seem to do allright. I'm sure some NR will help, too. But definitely something to consider.
--
Sam, you also make good points with the fs100. It's definitely a more "pro" set up with XLRs and such. I think if I had an fs100 already, I'd probably stick to it just like you. However, I'll have my fs700 taking in two channels of audio, and an external recorder taking in a third channel...so I'm mostly just getting scratch audio on the DSLR for syncing in post. I guess I'm envisioning not having to rig it up. As far as the GH4, I want to like it because it sounds great on paper, but I've been underwhelmed by literally everything I've seen from it. To be fair, I haven't research it as much, so I can't say I have an expert opinion on it. I think for this B/C cam, image is priority. But I'm gonna look into it more, for sure!
--
Ironfilm,
it brings a smile to my face to hear someone standing up for BMPCC on the low light department. It's something a lot of the BM products get a bad rap with. However, I know many people who wouldn't shoot low light with fs700 and I also find that to be just fine. And yes, I'll usually bring my own light, but so far I only use it for the reception/dance parts where I can use a sort of back light to add some drama/flare to the scene. But yeah, it's not because it's too dark.
--
Spartacus,
Thanks for the reality check...haha. Yeah, I know what you mean. I suppose I'm trying to get as close as possible, knowing that it may not be attainable. I'm purchasing this camera for an operator. It would probably be on a tripod/slider mostly, with some light handheld work. I get what you mean, though. However, this would be a camera that would also make up a significant part of the final edit.

You can check out my work as it is now, to give you an idea. This was extreme low light so you can see the NR working hard, but I think given the compromise, it came out well.
http://vimeo.com/abreucanedo/jozawelcome

password: joza

Also, the rough cut of the ceremony, which I'm trusting you to know it's not finished, is here...just in case it helps to see the look I'm going for. Audio is still rough, edits not yet finalized, and some parts of the vowels not yet into the edit.

http://vimeo.com/abreucanedo/jozaceremony

password: joza

any feedback is also appreciated.
-Thanks again!!
 
I do have a sound recorder but having a Bcam that had XLR would reduce the need for it.. less wires less charging, less thought.

As a result of this thread and SamHs tests I am now considering a move to the GH4 and Yagh box. Yag boxes are running at huge discounts right now.

S
 
I have to vote for my new top camera, The Samsung NX1. Really hard to beat it for the price as a both a small A camera or a B camera to a bigger setup. The image is great, has a good mount for putting other glass on it, slow motion is not to bad at 120fps compared to your 240 on the fs700.
 
morgan_moore said:
I do have a sound recorder but having a Bcam that had XLR would reduce the need for it.. less wires less charging, less thought.

As a result of this thread and SamHs tests I am now considering a move to the GH4 and Yagh box. Yag boxes are running at huge discounts right now.

S
Click to expand...
'

My issue with the YAGH is that is needs to be powered externally. If it took batteries internal like a grip it would be a must have. Erik Naso who is on this board has a blog and put together some GH4/YAGH combinations w power.

I have a GH4 and FS7 but have never used them on the same shoot. I was debating going with an FS7 to keep one lens mount w adapters but really most of my lenses are nik or EF and I have adapters for M4/3.
 
Does the NX1 have a log setting yet? And is it strictly 8bit, or is there a 10bit video mode? I've like some of the images I've seen from it, but have also been reading some bad reviews. I'm gonna look into it more as well. I have about two more weeks to press the buy button on anything.

As for the GH4, can anyone post links to examples of great video from the GH4? I'm looking, but all I'm getting is a bit underwhelming compared to A7s, BMPCC, and even the NX1. I'll keep looking but if anyone's gotten to it, I'd love to see it!!!

Thanks again for the great inputs!
 
NX1 does not have either of those at the moment though there is signs to some new things in the pipeline coming, the image though is very good when treated right. The Image in 4K is second to none. Detail is great. HD is also good at 120p if you need it. Here is a video we just shot on the NX1 and Zeiss glass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxNhEXFXxm8
 
Some people have a strange perspective on low light, disparaging anything which isn't the A7s even!

Yet I've managed to pull off night shots in the past with merely my old GH1! But yeah, I do love how much better my A5100 with a focal reducer is at night than my GH1 was.

Got to remember that even our "bad at lowlight" cameras (such as the GH4) are far better than what people had to deal with in the days or film, or the SD/HD video people struggled with pre DSLR revolution days.

There was a feature film posted in this forum some time ago which was shot with a mixture of RED Scarlet + GoPro + 5Dmk3 ML raw + BMPCC.

What was the BMPCC used for.... the low light scenes!! (GoPro was just for aerial shots BTW. Bulk of the film was done with the RED, and I forget what the purpose of the 5D was)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top