Avoiding Sound Design : How do you capture on location?

K

Kholi

Section Moderator
Disclaimer: I know this question is like asking can you avoid color correction in the year 2012. Don't hurt me.


So, not a sound guy (obviously) and I'm about to embark upon a very strange endeavor. One where I will not have enough gold coin to spend on a very intense post sound session. I believe the max we'll be able to do is balance dialogue and music, probably a mono mix down from stereo audio capture (if we're lucky.)

That means no sound design, no professional foley (sound libraries... yes, sorry), so on and so forth.

My question is: how would you go about capturing the best ambient and dialogue in a run-n-gun situation? Especially times where you're likely to be confined to using Lav's because of the type of material you're shooting?

I read about the 3D mic Pro, sounds like a hoax to me but would carrying one of those around maybe help make up for the lack of real foley etc? Of course, it would NOT be for dialogue track, just ambient/foley/world.

Any advice/input's greatly appreciated. There WILL be at least one location mixer at all times.
 
Technically, you aren't avoiding sound design. It's just that you're trying to simplify as much of it as you can into production to alleviate the work in post. This can be done, in a limited sense, but you need to understand what the limitations are and how they'll impact the finished product.

Get clean dialog, first and foremost, along with room tone. Not doing so will cause you more headaches in post than not recording ambient beds in production.

As for everything else, I keep a hand-held recorder in my kit (DR-40) for grabbing ambient beds on-location. When production is down, go out and snag some sounds: traffic, playground, pool, restaurant, whatever's close and whatever you think you'll need (and maybe stuff you're not sure you'll need).

If you have someone on the crew who is keeping shot logs and field notes, have him/her try to keep at least a rough spot sheet of things that would normally take Foley. if nothing else, you have a starting place for spotting FX. It may be that what you manage to record in the field sounds better than what you have in the FX library. You can do some Foley on the cheap (fabric rubs, papers, etc.), and fairly quickly, if needed. Just remember that the quality of your output will reflect the time and effort of input. That said, you may find it better to go with fewer, higher-quality sounds (whether source or replaced) that to overload it with cheap library sounds.

Oh, and before you get hounded about it from someone else, "Foley" is a proper name... and is always capitalized.
 
To echo what Alex said..

Get really good dialogue on production, and use a small stereo recorder with good built in mics to get things like backgrounds and the like. Record wild Foley (technically it's just called wild sound) if you can. Then you can cut it to picture later. Record everything you possibly can. Better to have a ton of stuff you may not need than to get to post and not have what you do need. This will make your post process much smoother and faster. Remember this: file management is KEY. Make sure to label all sound files properly and have them backed up in at least two places.
 
I should add... get furry windscreen for the hand-held. I got one of the Red Head covers for my DR-40 and it has been a lifesaver.
 
Look at everything you might need to have wild. Door closings, knocks, cell phones sounds, footsteps, everything. Analyze it as you go. Anything that would add to the design, get it wild after the take. If it maqkes a noise and you see it do so......get it.


If I am running lavs, I seperate the channels, so I have lavs on one side and boom on the other. Train the talent to not step on each others lines.

Get room tone 10-15 seconds longer than the longest scene in that room (not take....scene).
 
I find myself keeping an ear out for ambient sounds to record during production but cannot always find the time. I think most people would agree that the sound department cannot ask G & E to stop what they're doing so we can record ambient sound. I've found that going back after a location is wrapped works, but this isn't always possible.

Simply, on a run-n-gun production there isn't much time to record these helpful sound effects. Alex, could you explain at what point you use the hand-held recorder and give me an example of when you're recording this on location? Just during down time?
 
I got a H2N for that reason. I capture room tone and atmospheres with it.
The build in Mid-Side or even 4 channel surround mics do a surprisingly good job on that.
After the take I record the single sounds, like footsteps, putting down a plate on the table and what not, with the boom mic (hypercardioid).

Works like a charm

Frank
 
Zander Burstein said:
Alex, could you explain at what point you use the hand-held recorder and give me an example of when you're recording this on location? Just during down time?
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Depends on the production. Down-time is a great time. Sometimes I'll go back to the location by myself and grab ambient beds. I also throw it in my bag when I travel, and grab sounds wherever I go... even on vacation. Beach sounds, the DC Metro, city sounds wherever I am... it's a great way to build a library. Also, if there's some extended down time while another department works in one location, it may be possible to slip away to another location next-door and grab a couple minutes of sound bed.

I have even been on productions where the director was supportive of audio, even keen on certain things, and have been able to grab certain sounds as they happen. Example: I was on a short film back in January, shooting on a farm, and the cows started mooing. The director nodded at me and signaled me to grab it, and we locked the crew down. We ended up getting not only the cows, but the distant ring of the church bell from another key location down the road. This is the exception rather than the rule, but if the director has a good, working relationship with the sound department, anything's possible.

For wild FX, I tend to use my primary kit: shotgun or hyper, mixer, recorder. Those are often mono sounds anyway. Back on that same production on the farm, there were lots of sounds in the house that we wanted (creaky floors, creaky bed, kitchen stools scooting, knocking on the door), so I grabbed another crew member after we'd wrapped on the last day and we went through the house to knock each one off the list.

Earlier in the week, I'd gone outside with another crew member to get some wilds on the farm (footsteps on gravel, scrap metal being tossed around, the gate opening and closing), and while we were around the barn a light rain shower passed over us and made an incredible sound on the barn's tin roof. I was using my shotgun and my audio bag for the wilds, but had my DR-40 in one of the bag's pockets... and grabbed a little of the rain on the barn.
 
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Postmaster said:
I got a H2N for that reason. I capture room tone and atmospheres with it.
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Just to clarify, "room tone" is not something you grab on a separate recorder. Room tone should always be recorded using the same mics, mixer, recorder, etc., as for dialog. This is something you grab immediately after a scene/take. If you record it later using a different piece of gear, it isn't room tone.
 
Kholi said:
...
So, not a sound guy (obviously) and I'm about to embark upon a very strange endeavor. One where I will not have enough gold coin to spend on a very intense post sound session. I believe the max we'll be able to do is balance dialogue and music, probably a mono mix down from stereo audio capture (if we're lucky.)

That means no sound design, no professional foley (sound libraries... yes, sorry), so on and so forth.
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OK no hurt ;~)
You should clear up some terms in your mind. Sound design is not synonymous with sound post. In theatre it means everything related to sound but in film it is either someone who designs very specific sounds that need to be created (most common) or occasionally someone who is the sound supervisor and is making a lot of "artistic" sound decisions because they have that kind of relationship with the director (pretty rare).

What you are trying to do is minimized sound post. That IS a design decision so in the big picture that is the sound design.

Foley is always capitalized, FYI. And it has nothing to do with sound libraries. Foley to be Foley has to be recorded live to picture (the picture it is recorded for). If it was previously recorded and is being reused it's FX not Foley.

THere is no shame in using sound libraries. 90% of the non dialog sound in films (music isn't considered "sound" in the Hollywood breakdown of things) is from sound libraries. Most are private libraries not the commercial ones you are talking about but not that different except for coverage and specificness.

Also you WANT your dialog in mono. You can add stereo backgrounds etc in post.

I know some of the above seems kind of anal but if you use the wrong terms you are likely to end up having some very nonproductive conversations.

My question is: how would you go about capturing the best ambient and dialogue in a run-n-gun situation? Especially times where you're likely to be confined to using Lav's because of the type of material you're shooting?
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The only decent way to do that is when you aren't shooting. Have someone go to the locations before or after the shoot dates and make the recordings. Depending on circumstances you may be able to send them somewhere in the neighborhood away from the shooting while you are shooting or do it before and after the shoot the same day. Thought the last gets complicated by strike and setup.

Generally nothing you capture on set while shooting is going to be much use in post. It's loaded with stuff you don't want, like generators, crew talking, etc.

I read about the 3D mic Pro, sounds like a hoax to me but would carrying one of those around maybe help make up for the lack of real foley etc? Of course, it would NOT be for dialogue track, just ambient/foley/world.
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Waste of money.

Any advice/input's greatly appreciated. There WILL be at least one location mixer at all times.
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Excellent choice (to have a sound person).

I would get the H4n (or similar) as suggested. Go through your script and create a spotting list of sounds backgrounds etc you are going to need/ want. This should be based on the sound of the setting IN the script not necessarily where you shoot the scene. So Apartment ambience is the ambience of an apartment in roughly the kind of location where the apartment in the STORY is not where you happen to set up the apartment "set". Big wood door close, is a big wooden door. If you have one on set that sound great then record it when you are not shooting. If it doesn't sound great then the "FX recordists" job is to find a great sounding one and record that. You get the point.

Print out that list and have someone or different people record the sounds while you are shooting or even in preproduction. That will become YOUR sound library.
And have them check off what is recorded and transfer AND NAME the files so you can find them.
 
Whoo boy... What a task. X_x. Okay thanks guys and thanks for the lingo check. I have an H4N so I'll go ahead and finally put it to good use.
 
Kholi said:
Whoo boy... What a task. X_x. Okay thanks guys and thanks for the lingo check. I have an H4N so I'll go ahead and finally put it to good use.
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Yes but FX recording is a lot of fun. As opposed to production where you are a slave to the DP, director etc., recording SFX it's just about you and finding the sound.

Some advice. Ambiences need to be a minute to three minutes with out a break to be much use. That means that if it's a quiet "forest" ambiance the motorcycle that runs through the middle doesn't count and you need to get at least a minute after or before the MC is heard. Also 2 min are a LOT better than one and three is fantastic.
It's hard to not move for three minutes so expect two and dream of three.

For hard FX (door closes etc.) more is better. If your there record five or ten door opens and closes. Over 10 or so is getting excessive. Record ANYTHING cool that you hear even if it's not on the list. Your library is valuable. Nobody but you has those sounds. If you live in a place where there hasn't been a lot of recordings (ie not LA, SF, NYC) then there may be very few recordings of the kinds of stuff you have.

The way it becomes valuable is if you need something you don't have there are a number of sound lists you can ask on but it helps a LOT if you have something to trade. If you need an old stream train (I have a bunch) and you can trade me some recording of your town ambience in some out of the way place I'm all over it. I once traded a bunch of protools sequences of Kung Fu fights that I did for a film for a bunch of ambient recordings from New Zealand. Great deal for both of us. He needed exactly what I had and I don't have any recordings from that part of the globe.
 
Here's a related question: say you record a door closing several times, each time being slightly different. Is there a standard / suggested method for cleaning up the file for later use in a sound library? I know one should trim the file to begin and end relatively close to the first sfx, and that you don't want to over process the sfx. But what about things like high and low pass filters; should one separate out each of the door closes into discrete files or keep them together?
 
Generally you don't want to do any filtering on the recordings. I have at times run some noise reduction but VERY rarely. IF you have a huge amount of low rumble from wind or something I might roll off the bottom. But generally nothing. You can always do it later and what you think is a problem now may turn out to be great on some other project. Don't trim too close to the sound. This is more of a danger on the tail end than the start. We used to trim the hell out of things and cut them all into individual files, but then storage was expensive and we were working hard to minimize disk space. I generally trim of slates and such but if there are 15 door opens and closes and it's the same door I will keep them in one file. It's a lot easier to track and name and you can pick up a couple of terabytes for $150 or so. In comparison the first major feature I worked on we had around 20-30 gigabytes of storage for ALL the SFX on the show. The library was on MO cartridges at $150/ 640 megabytes. A few years later Titanic, a really huge show had all the the FX and Foley on about 300 gigs. (everybody was on SCSI drives and they maxed out at the time at 8 gigs (we had two) everything else was four and two gig drives).

So trim out un related garbage but that is about it.
 
Now this is just me........I like to leave 30-50 MS as head and tails on any clip and do fade ins/outs on any clip. Helps to transition any "weird" differences in the audio. Then place them in the sound design.

But that's just me.......I am a weird audio guy.
 
I'm talking about prepping for the library. Once you grab a sound to use on a track you slice down to what you need and fade for flavor. PT doesn't have a zero crossing feature so I was trained to add head and tail scrapes (old school film term for fade) on every region (or clip in every other application and now in PT10) so you wouldn't get "pops".

But for the master clips I'm keeping in the library I don't fade and I leave plenty of lead in and out.
 
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