Avoid Banding with external recorder?

B

brigadoon

Active member
Hi,
I'm a Panasonic user since DVX100 and HVX200. With the HVX200 I've not really banding issues.
With the new AF-101 I can live with noise in some situations but the banding issues are not acceptable for me.
I've been shooting last two years with Canon 5D & 7D, and I was very exciting with the new Panasonic AF-101. I love the new camera but I'm really disappointing with the banding issues.
I'm thinking buy an external recorder like the atomos ninja or ki pro mini (I prefer the last one but it's expensive). If I could avoid the banding recording at external recorder (with other codec like Apple Proress 4:2:2) I could make this extra economy effort (but it's 8 bit too)
An external recorder it's a solution for banding issues?
The problem it's the codec, the sensor, 8 bit...?
Someone who have an external recorder has made tests?
Thanks a lot and sorry for my bad english ;)
 
Dear Friends,

One of our friends, Olof, has been thoroughly testing this issue of banding.

Olof will be running some more tests in a few days or sooner, and then posting his results.

Olof has an AF100, a nanoFlash, and all of the technical gear, and expertise, to thoroughly examine this issue.

The following information is based on a conversation that I just had with Olof.

The banding is created in the camera, and it depends on the various settings used.

The banding is present on the HD-SDI output of the camera, but can be minimized with the correct settings.

The banding is reduced when one records the HD-SDI output with a nanoFlash, but not eliminated entirely.


When one reduces the noise as much as possible, the banding becomes more of a problem.
(But, this is already known, I am just relaying that Olof's tests have confirmed this situation.)


Now, from my perspective and knowledge, this banding is not due to the fact that the camera is 8-bit.
There are many cameras that are 8-bit that do not have this issue.


We can say positively that this issue can be helped with a nanoFlash. But the nanoFlash can not entirely eliminate this issue.

But, please understand my perspective, I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for Convergent Design, and the nanoFlash is our product.

Also, please note that looking at the video frame by frame will show the banding more than by examining the video at full speed.
 
With our Ki Pro, banding is exactly the same as AVCCAM from the AF100. I also did a side by side test with HPX170 on a spot light shooting a gray flat field. 170 had banding as well, but not quite as obvious as AF100 in low noise settings.

I shot dark interiors and bright exteriors yesterday and saw no banding issues that caught my eye, including blue sky, so it's content and contrast related, but definitely from the front end of the camera, not codec related, IMO.
 
How does Panasonic miss this or let this one slide through the development phase? Seems like an important issue that should have been corrected. Banding to me is more of an issue than a bit of noise.
 
We talking about banding, or posterization here? I used to mix the two up so I'm sure I can't be the only one.
 
This camera is no worse than any other 8-bit camera, but as said before you can set the camera so that banding is only a small issue or in most cases a non issue. This camera can be set to very clean or more noisy. Find the right setting and you're all set.
 
I think there needs to be a banding sticky to address this head on, to demonstrate visual examples and realistic solutions.

This is the kind of issue that can be devastating to a potential funder's acceptance of this camera. Those of us that in the past have had to hard-sell things like MiniDV and HDV to broadcasters know what it's like when the rumor mill is running rampant.
 
Here is what I'm talking about, and i just wanted to see if this is what is being discussed in this topic or really CMOS banding which gives you vertical lines running through the image in low exposure / high gain areas.

Here is the show with Detail, VDetail set to -7 with Coring set to +7

lowdetailposter.jpg



And here is the same image with Detail and VDetail set to +7 with coring set to -7

highdetailposter.jpg
 
editman said:
This camera is no worse than any other 8-bit camera, but as said before you can set the camera so that banding is only a small issue or in most cases a non issue. This camera can be set to very clean or more noisy. Find the right setting and you're all set.
Click to expand...

I thought the same thing too Editman. But then i compared a similar shot side by side with my 7D. The AF100 had more detail, but also a lot more noticeable posterization on any setting that i tried.
 
PaPa said:
We talking about banding, or posterization here? I used to mix the two up so I'm sure I can't be the only one.
Click to expand...

The "banding" being talked about in this thread is about quantization and posterization, not "flash banding" or CMOS partial exposure like you get from camera flashes
 
In motion, the lower the detail, the more obvious the posterizing, and vice versa. The hard trick is finding a balance between the two. Because as you can see, an overly sharpened image in camera will give you edge enhancement and haloing ( as seen around the bulb ) But the extra noise helps break up the "banding" and actually gives you some realy nice detail most of the time.
 
As stated though, this can be seen more easily on a still frame than in the actual footage. My question is Papa, can you upload some of this footage so we can see what it actually looks like as a clip?
 
I have already in another post. But i would be more than happy to upload the sequence from those stills. Uploading footage will not give you as much of a grasp because it will get compressed even more so than these JPG.s But These JPGS look almost identical to what im seeing in my editor so i know it's a good reference.
 
PaPa said:
In motion, the lower the detail, the more obvious the posterizing, and vice versa. The hard trick is finding a balance between the two. Because as you can see, an overly sharpened image in camera will give you edge enhancement and haloing ( as seen around the bulb ) But the extra noise helps break up the "banding" and actually gives you some realy nice detail most of the time.
Click to expand...


One approach to improve the banding is by using dithering techniques in post production - it will generally give you more fine control than trying to fiddle with in camera settings which may leave coarse grain and oversharpening artifacts as you've demonstrated

Of course, if possible , it's better to reduce as much "baked in" banding before post . I'm sure olof's tests will shed more light on the subject, and what settings may be "ideal"

I've resized these slightly from PaPa's screenshot above, but you can open them in separate tabs

before
http://i51.tinypic.com/6szw49.png

dither
http://i54.tinypic.com/65ww81.png
 
PDR said:
One approach to improve the banding is by using dithering techniques in post production - it will generally give you more fine control than trying to fiddle with in camera settings which may leave coarse grain and oversharpening artifacts as you've demonstrated

Of course, if possible , it's better to reduce as much "baked in" banding before post . I'm sure olof's tests will shed more light on the subject, and what settings may be "ideal"

I've resized these slightly from PaPa's screenshot above, but you can open them in separate tabs

before
http://i51.tinypic.com/6szw49.png

dither
http://i54.tinypic.com/65ww81.png
Click to expand...

WOW, that is a really big difference to me. I need to find out how this is achieved.
 
PaPa,

Can you please explain or highlight in one of the lamp images where you see the banding. For the life of me, I can see none of it. And I see no discernable difference between the two images that PDR posted. FWIW, I'm viewing using a calibrated HP LP2475w monitor attached to an nVIDIA Quadro FX video card.
 
it's not on the bulb, it's around the white. Look at the gradual decrease in brightness. There are discernible lines that show the gradation in light. It's posterization.
 
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