digital_walnut
Active member
Wasn't Color's functionality going to be integrated into FCPX? Regardless, I'm a fan of having lower prices for individual components as an option.
Avid's reaction to FCPX
- Thread starter Newman
- Start date
Christian m
Well-known member
But how often do a post house run an imac with internal storage? You`ll still need the Xsan, monitors(sound and video) and all other normal office stuff(including the office it self. Add a technician or two and whether it`s avid or fcp x don`t make that much difference in a long therm perspective.
But I agree it will be interesting to see if technical clients will comment why the pay x amount when the tools are "cheap"...
In the end clients still pay for the talent, not the tools....most of them could not care less what we use as long as we deliver what they demand.
Good clients understand production values and are willing to pay more for a better result. Individuals that are just starting out rarely get the chance to work with good clients. They are faced with fierce competition for low paying small jobs here and there in an effort to build a client base. Tough sledding.
A similar thing happened to Media 100 as well. I remember Media 100 boards ran $20,000 or more.
When suddenly you could do this in software for $1K, the paradigm and price point shifted.
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Jason Adams
Section Moderator
Lets keep this discussion in balance here. It is not a thread about what NLE or Platform is better. It is about this competitive relationship between two industry leaders. Two companies whose approach could more be more different. Apple seeks to democratize content creation by creating accessible tools where the TECH of technology disapears and people just create. It is something that apple does better than anyone. The question is what happens to our industry when everyone is invited and the tools are great, cheap, and easy to use.
The cost and complexity of our industry tools was a gate keeper. It ment that only people serious enough to make a substantial investment could acquire the tools to create on a pro level. Now with cheaper/better cameras, faster computer hardware, and now lower cost pro NLEs anyone with couple hundred bucks can have tools that CAN create pro level content. I know...its all about the artists not the tools. However, the status of the market, client expectation, and economy etc can shape the industry. Everyone that is so confident their clients hire them just for their art and expertise I would dare you to double your rates tomorrow and see what happens.
Visual content creators like all artists have to exist in balance between art and commerce. That is what makes these discussions so fascinating if they can stay on track and not dissolve into product X vs product y.
Just my opinions...lets hear your so long as we aren't name calling and product bashing. Its a deeper more fascinating issue
The cost and complexity of our industry tools was a gate keeper. It ment that only people serious enough to make a substantial investment could acquire the tools to create on a pro level. Now with cheaper/better cameras, faster computer hardware, and now lower cost pro NLEs anyone with couple hundred bucks can have tools that CAN create pro level content. I know...its all about the artists not the tools. However, the status of the market, client expectation, and economy etc can shape the industry. Everyone that is so confident their clients hire them just for their art and expertise I would dare you to double your rates tomorrow and see what happens.
Visual content creators like all artists have to exist in balance between art and commerce. That is what makes these discussions so fascinating if they can stay on track and not dissolve into product X vs product y.
Just my opinions...lets hear your so long as we aren't name calling and product bashing. Its a deeper more fascinating issue
Darren Levine
Veteran
just to clarify, nowhere was i bringing up the mac/pc debate, adobe can run on mac just the same. the OP's topic was the "battle between Apple and Avid"
My point was that apple's primary marketing is to be trendy, avid and many of the other companies is just to make a good product. and like i said, all of the edit softwares have come a long way, they all can edit, the rest is up to the artist.
i think the most relevant way to compare avid, fcp, adobe, pinnacle, any other edit systems is by the actual needs of the editor. a broadcast tv editor will have a different requirement list than a feature film editor, and a advertising editor their own list, an animator another list, etc...
would i would love to see are what everyone's list would be, to be more specific: state the industry/product type, and list out your edit software's requirements, then your extra feature preferences, don't even mention FCP, avid or anything, just bare feature lists that are important to you. that would give relevance and perhaps help someone who is torn between softwares see what other features others here value most.
just a few more cents
My point was that apple's primary marketing is to be trendy, avid and many of the other companies is just to make a good product. and like i said, all of the edit softwares have come a long way, they all can edit, the rest is up to the artist.
i think the most relevant way to compare avid, fcp, adobe, pinnacle, any other edit systems is by the actual needs of the editor. a broadcast tv editor will have a different requirement list than a feature film editor, and a advertising editor their own list, an animator another list, etc...
would i would love to see are what everyone's list would be, to be more specific: state the industry/product type, and list out your edit software's requirements, then your extra feature preferences, don't even mention FCP, avid or anything, just bare feature lists that are important to you. that would give relevance and perhaps help someone who is torn between softwares see what other features others here value most.
just a few more cents
I started on Avid, edited on Media 100, back to an old Avid Meridien system, Edius, dabbled in Premiere, and am on FCP now. Here's what I want in an edit system, based on my experiences.
It has to be fast - and I don't just mean a lot of realtime. I mean keyboard shortcuts that I can customize. If I export 200 files a day, I need a keyboard shortcut for that. If I'm logging hour long clips, I need to do it entirely by keyboard. If I'm exporting specific file types, I need to be able to save them so I can export quickly. I've used systems that require 5 steps just to export a still or some audio - that's unacceptable.
I need to customize the interface so it suits my style, not the style the interface engineer thinks I'll like (think colors, layout, fonts, overall darkness or lightless of the app). Same with the keyboard (I've mentioned it before but that's how important it is to me).
Media management - I need fast access to my files, but they absolutely must remain linked in my edit system. Renders, if they have to happen, must stay linked. That means I can turn on/off a clip, change track focus, etc...and render files remain online. If I move a clip a couple frames and move it back, the render files remain. It needs to be easy to offline/online. Easy to archive projects and even easier to bring them back online.
It has to get out of my way when I edit - don't think for me. Don't try to keep my clips in sync by default - I can handle that. Don't tell me I can't move a clip or a trim a clip because another clip is in the way - I know. I'm editing and it's my job to pay attention to that stuff, so the program needs to let me do my job. That said, I need fast access to my clips - I need to grab them and thrown them around if I want to. 3 point editing is my style, but not all the time so I need options.
Trim mode - essential.
Effects - interface needs to be smart. I need to move effect order around easily without having to save them to a bin and reapply. As much realtime as possible here - use the graphics card if you have to, smart rendering, whatever. Just make it happen fast so I can keep working.
File support - native please with the option to transcode quickly to an appropriate editing codec. Talk easily to other apps. I need to go to After Effects often, so let me export XML's or something AE can understand so I can easily jump to it, do what I need to do, and bring a render back into my sequence.
Audio - meh. I send everything off to be professionally mixed, but being able to edit at the sample level is essential. Slipping by samples is essential.
Metadata - I need it, and the more of it the better. Add info to clips, read everything embedded in a clip and display it on the clip in the timeline if I need it. I still need my subclips, subsequences, nesting would be great, and searching all that metadata needs to be fast.
Something like Scriptsync/Phrasefind/Get. Extra cost, part of the app, whatever, but it's essential for long-form work.
Color correction - I'd like it part of the app, realtime, and powerful. Like if Color and Symphony and Color Finesse had a baby.
A lot of these are available in all the apps I've used, none of the apps have everything. Will FCPX? No, I seriously doubt it. Will it get close? I'll know in June/July when it's released and we get a copy at work. Otherwise, I'll use what's appropriate.
Of course I have my favorite app too, and it's easy to figure out what it is from my list if you're familiar with them all, but that's another discussion. Regarding Avid's response to FCPX? They can't compete on price. Apple makes money off Avid - they'd be smart to not put them out of business, because everyone that wants to run Avid on a Mac has to buy a Mac and that means Apple makes money. Same with Adobe and Apple. But these big three competing like this is great for us, the consumers, so I hope the 3 A's keep at it. I also hope all three stay in business for years and continue to push each other.
M.
It has to be fast - and I don't just mean a lot of realtime. I mean keyboard shortcuts that I can customize. If I export 200 files a day, I need a keyboard shortcut for that. If I'm logging hour long clips, I need to do it entirely by keyboard. If I'm exporting specific file types, I need to be able to save them so I can export quickly. I've used systems that require 5 steps just to export a still or some audio - that's unacceptable.
I need to customize the interface so it suits my style, not the style the interface engineer thinks I'll like (think colors, layout, fonts, overall darkness or lightless of the app). Same with the keyboard (I've mentioned it before but that's how important it is to me).
Media management - I need fast access to my files, but they absolutely must remain linked in my edit system. Renders, if they have to happen, must stay linked. That means I can turn on/off a clip, change track focus, etc...and render files remain online. If I move a clip a couple frames and move it back, the render files remain. It needs to be easy to offline/online. Easy to archive projects and even easier to bring them back online.
It has to get out of my way when I edit - don't think for me. Don't try to keep my clips in sync by default - I can handle that. Don't tell me I can't move a clip or a trim a clip because another clip is in the way - I know. I'm editing and it's my job to pay attention to that stuff, so the program needs to let me do my job. That said, I need fast access to my clips - I need to grab them and thrown them around if I want to. 3 point editing is my style, but not all the time so I need options.
Trim mode - essential.
Effects - interface needs to be smart. I need to move effect order around easily without having to save them to a bin and reapply. As much realtime as possible here - use the graphics card if you have to, smart rendering, whatever. Just make it happen fast so I can keep working.
File support - native please with the option to transcode quickly to an appropriate editing codec. Talk easily to other apps. I need to go to After Effects often, so let me export XML's or something AE can understand so I can easily jump to it, do what I need to do, and bring a render back into my sequence.
Audio - meh. I send everything off to be professionally mixed, but being able to edit at the sample level is essential. Slipping by samples is essential.
Metadata - I need it, and the more of it the better. Add info to clips, read everything embedded in a clip and display it on the clip in the timeline if I need it. I still need my subclips, subsequences, nesting would be great, and searching all that metadata needs to be fast.
Something like Scriptsync/Phrasefind/Get. Extra cost, part of the app, whatever, but it's essential for long-form work.
Color correction - I'd like it part of the app, realtime, and powerful. Like if Color and Symphony and Color Finesse had a baby.
A lot of these are available in all the apps I've used, none of the apps have everything. Will FCPX? No, I seriously doubt it. Will it get close? I'll know in June/July when it's released and we get a copy at work. Otherwise, I'll use what's appropriate.
Of course I have my favorite app too, and it's easy to figure out what it is from my list if you're familiar with them all, but that's another discussion. Regarding Avid's response to FCPX? They can't compete on price. Apple makes money off Avid - they'd be smart to not put them out of business, because everyone that wants to run Avid on a Mac has to buy a Mac and that means Apple makes money. Same with Adobe and Apple. But these big three competing like this is great for us, the consumers, so I hope the 3 A's keep at it. I also hope all three stay in business for years and continue to push each other.
M.
Let's get back on topic, please.
This thread is not about anecdotal stories about individual users or anthropomorphising companies.
Please read the OP's original inquiry and stay on topic.
This thread is not about anecdotal stories about individual users or anthropomorphising companies.
Please read the OP's original inquiry and stay on topic.
Jarek Zabczynski
Veteran
It might saturate the industry with wanna be editors the same way we now have a slew of DSLR "pros" running around taking our jobs.
I can compare it to this. I dabble in musical theatre. You'd normally need to go to an open call at 8am and wait hours to be see among 400 other people and audition. Now since American Idol and company began, every little teenager out there thinks they can sing. Now you need to go to these auditions at 4am because you end up with TWICE the amount of people there who THINK they are qualified enough to even audition. Just because your friends and your parents told you that you sing well doesn't make it true, odds are you are still only average at best. So these jokers waste the casting people's time and make it really tough for the people with real talent to even get a fair shot. By the time they get around to seeing you they've had to endure though hours of talentless broadway wanna bes and just don't care anymore.
If you start with the notion of "Now with FCPX everyone can be a pro!" well, people will believe it and become "pros" or at least according to them.
Talent and skill are something that is both natural to the individual and takes time and effort to perfect and master. Artists are born, not created.
keylight
Veteran
Two things in your post I take a little issue with:
Ever wonder if serious actors look at dabblers with the same kind of disdain you have towards "every little teenager"?
Without spending "time and effort to perfect and master" they wouldn't exhibit the "talent and skill" of great artists, so all artists are created through hard work. And of course everyone is born, so I'd suggest that a better way of looking at it is this:
Artists are born, then created. :smile:
Part of the creation involves going through a crap period, whether it's a week, month, year....
keylight
Veteran
Most of my work has been in the corporate video world as opposed to film, and for the last decade I'd say about 80% of the shops I've been to (some internal departments but mostly outside production companies) were running Avid on PCs. Those places that used Macs tended to be small shops running FCP. Would love to know the actual number of PC vs Mac Avid seats out there.
The benefit of Avid on a PC of course is the PC hardware costs are lower.....
One thing I possibly foresee with the new Final Cut is clients interfering more in the edit process. When the software is $300 I can see a client who thinks they know better asking for all the footage and edits so they can "fix" what they think is wrong themselves.
It's one thing to hand over footage and have someone poorly hack their way through hours and hours of footage, but it can get sticky if you are handing over cuts and having the control freak clients make your life a living hell. How many clients happen to have a copy of Avid on their home machine? I'm guessing very very few to none.
Things could get ugly.
It's one thing to hand over footage and have someone poorly hack their way through hours and hours of footage, but it can get sticky if you are handing over cuts and having the control freak clients make your life a living hell. How many clients happen to have a copy of Avid on their home machine? I'm guessing very very few to none.
Things could get ugly.
One thing I possibly foresee with the new Final Cut is clients interfering more in the edit process. When the software is $300 I can see a client who thinks they know better asking for all the footage and edits so they can "fix" what they think is wrong themselves.
It's one thing to hand over footage and have someone poorly hack their way through hours and hours of footage, but it can get sticky if you are handing over cuts and having the control freak clients make your life a living hell. How many clients happen to have a copy of Avid on their home machine? I'm guessing very very few to none.
Things could get ugly.
Even worse is the client with a girlfriend/boyfriend who thinks they are an "artiste", and feel they are qualified to advise and second guess everything.
Jarek Zabczynski
Veteran
I would consider myself a serious actor. I've been doing it for years. I call myself a dabbler cause I don't do it full time anymore. My end goal is just different. I do it because I enjoy it and aren't looking to make a living off of it. When I see an opportunity to do a show I wanna do, I go for it. I think you'd have to be there to understand what I mean. There are clearly people at auditions these days that have never sung on a stage or even outside of their own shower or bedroom. These are the people I have problems with. The American Idol crowd has no place on Broadway.
I'll go half way with you.
Artist are born, then sculpted.
You can't create something that isn't there.
...and they turn in their cut, and it's actually pretty good. Now that would be really bad. ;-)
Darren Levine
Veteran
"in life there are a few winners, and a whole lotta losers" -George carlin
keylight
Veteran
I like that.