Avid + FCP

D

D_and_G

Well-known member
I'm entering the final budgeting (roughly) for setting up a HD workflow and suite. I know a lot of things can change between now and December (HVX200) but I need to make allowances/expenditures etc... now, so when the time comes I'll have the $. Just thought I'd say that upfront so you know where I'm coming from.

I've narrowed it down to two possiblities.

A. FCP HD solution. FCP Studio, G5, Kona 2 card, Hd monitor + T.V,
X-Serve RAID etc...
and do everything on one system (except for music composition).
Ingest DVC PRO HD and decompress and edit and colour correct.
Depending on the business situation output to a HD format/DVD or export it
in TIFF files for film blowup.


B. Avid HD solution. Avid Studio or Avid HD, HP xw8200, Mojo etc...
and ingest DVC PRO HD edit natively, EDL, then do a sound pass and
colour correction using LCD or rent a deck and use a HD monitor or
colour correct using the downconverted SD signal on a NTSC monitor.
Output to HD using a rented deck or to DVD.


Ok. So the conundrum comes in here. After pricing out the above it still comes out about $10,000 Canadian more for the FCP solution.

However, you are editing and colour correcting decompressed and are closer to film blowup at the end. With the Avid solution if you want to go film blowup you'll have to take your EDL and footage (whether saved on a Hard Drive or blu-ray/holo discs) to a Avid Nitris, decompress and conform then colour correct and filmout.


So the questions are :


1. Is there really a big appreciable difference in the footage quality between using the
FCP solution (above) versus the Avid solution (above) ? Specifically if you don't
finish on the DS Nitris ? (I don't want to waste the power of the HVX).


2. Would you take the money you save on the Avid solution, buy some archive
media, stick your footage on it and the EDL, put it on a shelf and wait
until you have a financial imperative to finish on the DS Nitris ?
(wow long sentence).



Man this HD thing is confusing. I am acutely aware of the market conditions I face, but it's hard to know where the HVX and HD Post world fit into it.

I've contacted a couple Post Houses about looking at some cut footage using the FCP methodology and the Avid methodology (both Xpress HD and Nitris finish) but side by side comparison wasn't available.


Your input/advice is appreciated. Thanx. :)
 
MichaelP said:
WHat HD formats do you want to be able to handle? This will dictate a lot of your NLE needs....
Click to expand...
I'd primarily like to be able to handle DVC PRO HD 100. Mostly from the HVX or on the outside project SDX.

I've seen the codec comparisons on the onerivermedia site, for the different Apple codecs using the Kona2, but they didn't have the DNxHD comparison or Avid native DVCPRO 100.

Besides, I'm more concerned with the moving image quality/artifacts on DVD and the big screen. From what I've been told the DVD won't be much of a difference, but the big screen could be. I really want to keep the Avid interface (and don't want to buy both FCP and Avid) and am willing to work around the HD limitations in Avid currently, but if there is an appreciable difference in editing decompressed 10 bit with FCP Kona2 versus native DVC PRO 100 Avid... then I'll need all the input I can get.

In my area the bigger projects are booked on the DS Nitris, and during peek season even their off hours are booked. Also, it gets expensive hiring a colour timer etc...
So that's another variable I'll have to take into account.

So in your opinion, when working with DVCPRO HD 100 footage -

Is colour correcting/finishing possible in Avid Xpress Pro HD (native or DNxHD) and
at least in the same ballpark as FCP+Kona2 ?

And is it plausible to cut DVC PRO HD 100 on Xpress Pro HD natively then take your cut on a HD/firewireHD to the DS and do a decompressed finish ? (or not as good take your archived media and EDL, do a conform and finish ?)

Thanks for letting me try your patience Michael:)
 
Hmmm.... I believe a lot of what you want to do will be achievable with Xpress Pro HD and working in DVCPRO HD native. This way your capture will be native directly over FireWire.

Now depending on how many generations you actually anticipate, that will be the tipping point. But for a timeline that has 3-4 layers, color corrections and effects, I don't believe you will see that much of a difference since you can do a single render at the end.

The difference with a DS or Adrenaline or now a Symphony product is the increased color correction controls. That is something you will need to decide what level you need. Of course you can always add a color correction plug-in to Xpress Pro to get secondary color correction etc.

But you do have a choice of rendering your effects as DNxHD and this works especially well for outputs like MPEG2 encoding and sequential TIFF out for a film out for example. This works well for all your graphics as well. But keep in mind that if you want to go back out to DVCPRO 100, you will need to render out as DVCPRO 100 in order to get back to that tape format.

This is why I say it all depends on how you are working and what your final distribution needs are gong to be. You can always take a FireWire drive to an Adrenaline or DS for output as you suggest, this is good for a HD-SDI output to a HDCAM or D5 type VTR. Keep in mind that DS does not support 720p/24. Just 720p/60.

Let me know what your priority deliverables are going to be and we can take it from there.

Michael
 
That's a hard question to answer due to the way I work. It's somewhat similar to a "wildcat" oil hunter. Sometimes I bankroll the project from start to finish (not too often) and other times Investors come on board running the full spectrum - depending on material, markets, timing etc -

For example, I shot a documentary concerning Tibet, and only got private investors half way through a turbulent shoot , halfway around the world.

So the deliverables depend on a number of factors, some of which are in my control, and some of which aren't. Yet - I am aiming to segue into feature film productions.
(isn't everybody?) Which is even less of a steady pay day than I am currently enjoying. :)


So far my projects have ended up in media installations and T.V, but I've left the finer post-pro details to trusted collaborators. Yet, now with HD I feel the pull to get more hands on during the post-production process, doing as much in house, while not sacrificing quality.

This methodology started out of necessity and heart for me. I couldn't let personal passions languish on the shelf anymore. Besides, entrepreneurialism is in my blood.

Thanks for your help. I still have several months before I buy the HD suite, so I'll keep my eye on developments.

If you come across any examples of AvidHD native or DNxHD footage on the bigscreen, or FCP/Kona2 footage on the big screen just leave a note. I think in the final determination it will come down to sitting in the theatre and judging for myself.

Cheers.
 
Michael:

You mentioned secondary color-correction plug-ins for AXP HD. Are there any in particular that you recommend that approach the control of the higher-end Avid systems?

For those of us who want the higher-end Avid but can't afford it, these plug-ins might actually be a worthwhile and cost-effective solution.

Thanks,

-DC-

p.s. I'll see you on Tuesday night in Burbank. :)
 
B_and_G -

Your situatiuon sounds very intersting and challenging at the same time, but is very much like everyone in the industry right now that are content creators and owners. I too have been busy with my start up production company over the past 6 months buying film options on several short stories and mystery novels. The legal and negotiating procedurs sure do take their time, but owning the content is the only real way to go. But with that goes the decisions of formats to shoot on, what best works for the story, what best fits the budget etc. Some of the stories will work fine with HD as they are intended for television, but some are better served with a real film look and there I would most likey go super 16mm with a HD DI workflow.

In the end, you really need to do your own testing, but as soon as the Avid DNxHD codecs were completed, I took abut 10 minutes of 2K scans from 35mm to test the quality of the images. I transcoded them to uncompressed HD as well as DNxHD 220 10 bit. I then cut them together and did a wipe between them and exported out as DPX files for a film out.

The high end facility I gave them to looked at the files on a 2K projector (much less forgiving than film projection) in a calibrated 2K color correction room and to this day cannot tell me which part of the frame is uncompressed and which part of the frame is DNxHD. They cannot even tell me how and where the split lies.

So as far as the qualty of the codec, I believe it will hold up to the same rigors expected from an uncompressed HD solutotion with much less of the overhead.

As far as television, broasdcasters take longer to test a mastering format before it is "cleared for air" so to speak, but several HD propgrams are already airing from DNxHD masters - American Idol" being one of them. If you have HDTV at home, give that a look. I have watched it on my HD projector at home on a 10' foot screen (and this is now compressed HD for broadcast after MPEG-2
 
B_and_G -

Your situation sounds very interesting and challenging at the same time, but is very much like everyone in the industry right now that are content creators and owners. I too have been busy with my start up production company over the past 6 months buying film options on several short stories and mystery novels. The legal and negotiating procedures sure do take their time, but owning the content is the only real way to go. But with that goes the decisions of formats to shoot on, what best works for the story, what best fits the budget etc. Some of the stories will work fine with HD as they are intended for television, but some are better served with a real film look and there I would most likely go super 16mm with a HD DI workflow.

In the end, you really need to do your own testing, but as soon as the Avid DNxHD codecs were completed, I took abut 10 minutes of 2K scans from 35mm to test the quality of the images. I transcoded them to uncompressed HD as well as DNxHD 220 10 bit. I then cut them together and did a wipe between them and exported out as DPX files for a film out.

The high end facility I gave them to looked at the files on a 2K projector (much less forgiving than film projection) in a calibrated 2K color correction room and to this day cannot tell me which part of the frame is uncompressed and which part of the frame is DNxHD. They cannot even tell me how and where the split lies.

So as far as the quality of the codec, I believe it will hold up to the same rigors expected from an uncompressed HD solution with much less of the overhead.

As far as television, broadcasters take longer to test a mastering format before it is "cleared for air" so to speak, but several HD programs are already airing from DNxHD masters - American Idol" being one of them. If you have HDTV at home, give that a look. I have watched it on my HD projector at home on a 10' foot screen (and this is now compressed HD for broadcast after MPEG-2) and i looks great.

I hope this gives you some direction, you can private email me with your number and we can discuss farther by phone if you feel that would help answer any more of your questions.

Michael
 
Thanks Michael. I agree with you 100% about owning the content. The risk reward ratios are in a different ballpark, but if you're constitutionally suited for it, there's no better life.

I think I've got a handle on my post budget/considerations for now.

Much appreciated.
 
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