AVCHD to Various Codec Comparison

[dzcube]

Continued confusion amongst codecs...

using panny tm900 so avchd at the moment.

Instead of going crazy over all the info online about which is the best codec for quality and editing, which left me more confused, i'm going to setup some tests, and just record clips and covert to all choices and compare them by eye.

that being said, i just want to make sure i'm setting up things correctly before i make comparisons.

1. if recording avchd 60i, i should select 30fps when converting, since 60i is 30fps.

2. just realized that i can convert to dvcpro, which i predict will be easier to edit on my MBP (2 core). when i convert from avchd to dvcpro, i notice that there are several different codecs

- dvcpro 1080i 60
- dvcpro 1080p 30
- dvcpro 720p 60
- dvcpro 720p 50

naturally, the right one for me would be 1080i 60. so you have all these different codecs, and DVCpro is one, but within that you have all these specific ones as well. Out of curiosity, why?
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The results are in, and its a bit disappointing.

i'm on a MBP late 2008, dual core 2.66, 4gig ram, latest FCP.
the setup was layering a single video clip on top of itself with 'overlay' composite mode
RT unlimited

AIC & pro res showed no difference between performance. Playback frame rate even at QUARTER can not play without a playback error immediately.

DVCpro on the otherhand, could play the setup back, but only at half playback frame rate, not full.

i was hoping AIC would work well since its smallest file size.

Very disappointing.
If anyone can chime in and confirm would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Alex H.]

1. if recording avchd 60i, i should select 30fps when converting, since 60i is 30fps.

The standard frame rate for video in NTSC countries is 29.97. 60i runs at 29.97.

naturally, the right one for me would be 1080i 60. so you have all these different codecs, and DVCpro is one, but within that you have all these specific ones as well. Out of curiosity, why?

It depends on what format you used to shoot, and where you intend to send it. Does your camera shoot 1080 or 720? Does your distribution medium require 1080 or 720?

You also need to match your acquisition frame rate. If you shot interlaced (60i), choose interlaced. If you shot progressive (30p or 24p), then choose the corresponding one.

720p60 is a feature you'll find on several HD cameras, including DSLRs. Lots of folks use it for slow-mo: shooting at a progressive 60 frames and then playing it back at 30p or 24p, often up-scaling it to intercut with 1080p footage.

720p50 is for PAL territories.

AIC & pro res showed no difference between performance. Playback frame rate even at QUARTER can not play without a playback error immediately.

DVCpro on the otherhand, could play the setup back, but only at half playback frame rate, not full.

i was hoping AIC would work well since its smallest file size.

Very disappointing.

Not sure exactly why the video is lagging. You shouldn't have troubles with DVCProHD, AIC, or ProRes (use ProRes LT, by the way). I edit often on a 2008 MacBook (not Pro) and have no problems with any of those. So there has to be something else going on.

What kind of drive are you using? Your MBP's internal drive, or an external drive? If external, what kind of connection? USB? FW400? FW800? Is the drive 5400rpm or 7200rpm?

And how full is your drive? If it's anywhere past 85% capacity, that can cause issues.

 

[hendosan]

You must have a problem with the speed of your drives, I had a 2007 iMac that could edit DVCProHD and ProRes flawlessly.

 

[dzcube]

The standard frame rate for video in NTSC countries is 29.97. 60i runs at 29.97.

i'm using aunsoft converter mts converter specifically for cameras like mine. its been great thus far with good reviews. there is no option for 29.97, only whole number frame rates. is this something i have to take up with aunsoft? my output is web, so i never really fully grasped all the 29.97 stuff.

It depends on what format you used to shoot, and where you intend to send it. Does your camera shoot 1080 or 720? Does your distribution medium require 1080 or 720?

the panasonic tm900 records in 60i or 60p and only 1080. though i am considering converting to 720 if the file size savings are worth it, since again, just web output.

What kind of drive are you using? Your MBP's internal drive, or an external drive? If external, what kind of connection? USB? FW400? FW800? Is the drive 5400rpm or 7200rpm?

And how full is your drive? If it's anywhere past 85% capacity, that can cause issues.

using internal at 7200rpm. hmm, yeah, capacity is definitely near full. i will clear up lots of room and see how it goes then

really hoping it will run ok. i was thinking i would just have to suffer

 

[Alex H.]

i'm using aunsoft converter mts converter specifically for cameras like mine. its been great thus far with good reviews. there is no option for 29.97, only whole number frame rates. is this something i have to take up with aunsoft? my output is web, so i never really fully grasped all the 29.97 stuff.

You might want to try MPEG StreamClip instead. It's free, it converts MTS files, and it has a lot more options and detailed settings.

As far as 29.97, well... when video first came around, in the days of monochrome (black and white), NTSC video ran at an actual 30 frames per second. The video was interlaced, which we still have today in some formats. Interlaced means that each image is created in two passes, or fields: odd lines and even lines. Since the second field is recorded slightly after the first field, you're actually capturing two different moments in time to make one frame. It's not going to be terrible obvious when playing interlaced video on an interlaced monitor, but put it on a playback monitor and you'll see the separation of fields - especially if there's fast motion in the frame - along edges. You must deinterlace before posting to the web or you'll have nasty results.

Back to 30fps... this was based on the electrical system, which is a 60Hz (aka 60-cycle) system. 60 cycles = 60 fields = 30 frames. When color TV came around, the engineers pioneering that system realized that there wasn't enough room within the NTSC signal to carry the color sync information, so they sacrificed 0.03 frames per second to carry meta information outside the viewable frame. This took the video rate down to 29.97. All NTSC video is based off this rate.

30p still runs at 29.97. 60p runs at 59.94 frames per second (29.97 x 2 = 59.94). 24p runs at 23.976.

What can be even more confusing is that, way back when, video was video was video and "60i" wasn't a common term. With the advent of variable frame rates and HD and other relatively new features with video, the term started appearing more and more in order to identify it against all the other formats. There are even some broadcast facilities and networks that label HD 60i as 59.94... because it's 59.94 fields per second.

the panasonic tm900 records in 60i or 60p and only 1080. though i am considering converting to 720 if the file size savings are worth it, since again, just web output.

720 is certainly a smaller file, and sufficient for the web.

1080p60 is not a standard format. There are consumer camcorders like yours that record it, but it isn't going to be compatible with most distribution. The downside to 1080i60 is that interlaced video is terrible for web playback. The interlacing is visible, and that's not a good thing. Your camera also records in a 24p mode, which gives you film-like motion playback. Just something to consider. You can even use 1080p60 to create some lovely slow-mo for a 1080p24 project.

using internal at 7200rpm. hmm, yeah, capacity is definitely near full. i will clear up lots of room and see how it goes then

really hoping it will run ok.

I'd be willing to bet that this is a large part of your problem.

 

[hendosan]

Why aren't you transcoding within FCP instead of using a third party converter? Log and Transfer will properly convert your video to the correct frame rate.

 

[dzcube]

Why aren't you transcoding within FCP instead of using a third party converter? Log and Transfer will properly convert your video to the correct frame rate.

good question. FCP can't transcode the 60p recordings, so i just got use to using a 3rd party.
i never really looked into that workflow but will not give it a whirl.

1080p60 is not a standard format. There are consumer camcorders like yours that record it, but it isn't going to be compatible with most distribution. The downside to 1080i60 is that interlaced video is terrible for web playback. The interlacing is visible, and that's not a good thing. Your camera also records in a 24p mode, which gives you film-like motion playback. Just something to consider. You can even use 1080p60 to create some lovely slow-mo for a 1080p24 project.

hmm, so i should avoid interlace 60i recording. would it be a good idea to just record at max quality 60p, and convert to 29.97 fps (same as the 24p mode)?

thanks!

 

[dzcube]

:lipsrseal:lipsrseal still a problem.

So i cleared up some room on the hd and have 36gigs free on 200gig 7200rpm drive.

no difference at all.

are you guys sure that processing 2 clips on 'overlay' isn't intensive enough to cause issues?
or are there some kind of settings in preferences i need to change?

theres no reason for me to think anything is up with the HD.

at my wits end...

thanks!

 

[dzcube]

Could there be some kind of conflict with Macbook pro from late 2009? Someone mentioned this could be it, but i doubt it.

RAM maybe?

 

[Alex H.]

Do clips play back fine when they aren't layered or trying to playback more complex effects in RT?

 

[ggrantly]

Seems like your workflow is pretty convoluted. First, skip the 1080/60p framerate, it is non-standard. Go progressive and skip interlaced (mostly because interlaced needs conversion for web output) Use an EXTERNAL 7200RPM firewire drive instead of your boot disc. Log and transfer within FCP to prores LT which is fine for AVCHD. Avoid framerate conversions if possible. Just saying if you keep the whole process clean, with fewer conversions, this will be cake.

Also 36Gigs isn't a whole bunch of free space on a 200Gig drive. You might try a defragment software.

Grant

 

[dzcube]

layered clips are def a problem.

single clips seem to be ok, with color correction 3 way is also ok. beyond that, i haven't done much more complex.

gamma correction though on single clip turns the clip red requiring rendering.

is there anything i need to ensure concerning scratch disk?

aye....

 

[dzcube]

Seems like your workflow is pretty convoluted. First, skip the 1080/60p framerate, it is non-standard. Go progressive and skip interlaced (mostly because interlaced needs conversion for web output) Use an EXTERNAL 7200RPM firewire drive instead of your boot disc. Log and transfer within FCP to prores LT which is fine for AVCHD. Avoid framerate conversions if possible. Just saying if you keep the whole process clean, with fewer conversions, this will be cake.

unfortunately, the camera only records

-1080/60p
-1080/60i
-24p but as i understand it, its not a true 24p, frame rate is 29.97 so i'm not even sure about that

so 60p being the highest quality, i figure is my best bet, and then convert cause converting will be needed anyways. concerning the 24p mode, some have said it has less low light noise, but i've noticed that quality is better otherwise.

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yeah, i'll have to get a new drive and see what happens there

thanks

 

[Alex H.]

yeah, i'll have to get a new drive and see what happens there

Don't know how I missed that in your earlier post, that you were using the internal drive. Never, ever, ever use your boot drive as your media drive. That's just way too much jumping back and forth for the drive to keep up. OS and software on the internal drive, and media on an external drive. That, I can guarantee, is what's tripping you up.

 

[dzcube]

Don't know how I missed that in your earlier post, that you were using the internal drive. Never, ever, ever use your boot drive as your media drive. That's just way too much jumping back and forth for the drive to keep up. OS and software on the internal drive, and media on an external drive. That, I can guarantee, is what's tripping you up.

snaps, i had no idea. i figured it would be faster if everything is on same drive. go figure.
alright will be testing on external soon.

 

[dzcube]

well, i tried working with media from a firewire 800 external, but 5400 rpm disk. (lacie little disk 320gb)

same terrible results. i can't imagine the 5400 would be the thing that is killing it.

at a lost

thanks :lipsrseal

 

[David W. Jones]

You want a 7200 rpm drive.

 

[Alex H.]

same terrible results. i can't imagine the 5400 would be the thing that is killing it.

And yet, that's choking your system. Even 10 years ago, when miniDV was the popular format, it was recommended that external FW drives were 7200rpm. HD takes much more than DV.

 

[NoahK]

Yeah you want to use ProRes not DVCPROHD. ProRes will preserve your original image quality and is a reasonably compact file size- especially at the ProRes or ProRes HQ settings. DVCPROHD is fine coming out of a camera but it's definitely going to lose some quality compressing from AVCHD. Invest in a faster, vaster hard drive and you'll be all set with ProRes.

-Noah