AVCHD/P2/HDV quagmire

T

twsp

New member
Greetings to all on this great site. I've been reading it for a while, but joined in the fun this morning as I'm having a tough time making some purchase decisions and thought some folks here might have some ideas. I've spent a zillion hours on the web researching all this stuff, so please bear with me, I'll try and make my concerns clear and concise :).

My video work is sporadic, doing TV commercials and general shooting for training videos and such. I don't shoot sports, but who knows if I may at some point. For the last few years I was using an XL2, but now that HD is the game I sold my XL2 and am looking into the rat's nest of formats and brands and codecs and media and, well, you know the drill.

I'm using a loaded PowerMac G5 Quad and FCP Studio 2, so AVCHD would require me to buy a new Mac Pro along with a new cam. This would be doable, but finances being what they are in this fine economy it's not my first choice unless AVCHD is becoming the true Llord Of Formats in the Video Kingdom.

It seems, sticking with my current machinery and software, I'm left with two choices, HDV or P2. I really like the Panasonic 170, though the cost of P2 is higher, for the 4:2:2 color and the DVCPRO-HD codec. I also like Sony's HDV lineup, in particular the Z5U. I really want 3 ND filters, and wide zoom, so narrowing down the choices are what led me to those cameras. I also really like the 170's AVCHD cousin, the Panasonic HMC150, and could use the extra money saved from the P2 game to help buy a Mac Pro. I've read in many forums that HDV is slowly losing ground (some say it's dead already) as a format, and that AVCHD is a lesser quality compared to mature codecs such as DVCPRO-HD and HDV, etc. Dunno what to think of those comments.

One thread I was reading somewhere said the imaging from the 170 is not as sharp and crisp as the HMC150, but in post the 170 footage can be sharpened up more efficiently as the data has more "meat" and it'll hold up since it's not as compressed a format as AVCHD.

A consideration that makes me lean towards tapeless cams is tape drives sorta scare me, as I had lots of problems with an XL1s, but never knew the problems existed until I came home to download the footage. Canon kindly replaced the entire drive mechanism for me twice, but I'm quite gun-shy about tape at this point, though I had no problems with the XL2's tape drive.

And, drum roll pleez, there's a lot of banter about CCD versus CMOS, and which is the best for the widest range of subject, action and lighting conditions.

I could ramble on for another ten paragraphs, but what do you experienced people think of the various formats and cams and such? I know this is a very wide question to ask, but I'm in a state of mass confusion. I guess if I had to buy something today I'd be very tempted by the Panasonic 170, and just bite the P2 bullet and spend the bux.

Then there's the Panasonic 200a. Ahhhhh, the horror, the horror......please Mr. Wizard, make it stop!

Thanks in advance for any tidbits anyone would like to offer!
 
im sorry to not be directly helpful. but ALL of this has been covered here on the forum repeatedly and in great detail. do some forum searches and i promise you'll find your answers : )
 
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i'll usually jump in and re-discuss topics. but this one has been hit from so many directions, i just cant generate the effort ; (

for what its worth, i too was an xl2 user until i got a demo disc of dvcprohd footage from panasonic. i sold all my SD gear the next day and havent looked back. after 3+ years of hvx200/hpx170 P2 shooting, ive never missed a beat and never been happier...i shoot TV/DOC/INDUSTRIALS/MUSIC and ive yet to encounter anything my camera and a pair of P2 cards, firestore, laptop cant manage...

i had tested all the various flavors of HDV before i got the panasonic disc and i discounted the format as a whole after about 4 hours of testing.
 
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Yeah, I knew when I posted that it's like asking "which oil is best" or "which tires are best" on a motorcycle forum. I just wanted to be somewhat clear on what I was confused about. Thank you for your take, and your solution was what I'd expect. And the P2 solution would be great as I can still use my current G5 Quad and FCP version. I can spend the extra money saved for a Mac Pro for P2 cards and be a happy camper!

Thanks again for your reply!
 
when i first got into P2/dvcproHD i was able to do basic cuts and dissolve editing in the field on my old 17" 1.0ghz powerbook G4. the only thing that stopped that was the new version of FCP wont run on that old machine... and i now have a newer macbook pro, so its not worth retro-installing the old machine.

P2/dvcproHD - its a sheer joy to work with.

avchd has its good points but its more compressed. and the hvx/hpx is just all around a more able camera.

and everything else being equal, id always choose CCD over CMOS.

HDV is a pain in the ass on just about every level. and i just like the panasonic look better than the sony look.

but this is just one guys opinion : )

- wait, didnt i say
i just cant generate the effort ; (
Click to expand...
i guess i lied.
 
Ha ha, you didn't lie, you just "implied!" Thanks for this post, it answers some very strong questions, especially the CCD vs. CMOS and HDV ones. I've been a commercial still photog for 35 years, so a lot of this stuff makes sense and there are many parallels, but in the HD video world I felt a bit lost so I'm happy to hear your opinions!
 
my biggest ***** about HDV is its longGOP compression which CAN make it a problem in high motion situations. it did when i tested it.

im not an avchd expert but as i understand it also employs a form of longGOP compression. and maybe im just old and cranky, but i consider both mpeg and h264 delivery codecs, NOT capture codecs.

and as far as HVX200/HVX200A vs HPX170. unless you NEED to shoot SD to tape. the HPX170 is a better all around purchase. wider lens, 1 more ND filter, SDI out, lighter... among others
 
That's the one I'm looking at. Makes sense all around, always has. I have no need for SD, and if I do, I'll turn down the volume when outputting the HD. Seems no reason to actually shoot SD any more, in a certain sense? The 170 is very cool, that's the one I want. I want one now, but must wait for a spell, but at least I know what target I'm aiming at now. Thanks again for your info. This is a nice forum, I'll visit often.
 
The 170 is a real Cadilac cam in its class. But the whole P2 workflow is more expensive, so be ready for that.

The one thing I wouldn't do is go HDV. Even Sony is going away from it as fast as they can make the excuses about why they used it in the first place.

I use both DVCProHD and AVCHD formats so for what its worth and think you would want to consider your markets in making a decision. If you are doing self published stuff, AVCHD will do you fine; it is less expensive all the way around except for needing a faster computer and newer software. If you are dealing with professional broadcast, the DVCProHD will give you more credibility.

Both formats can produce great images.

Grant
 
Good thoughts, good suggestions, too. Thanks for your ideas!

In the long run, I know my Quad G5 will need replacing at some point, but for right now, everything I have in computer and software (FCP Studio 2) will easily work with the DVCPRO-HD footage so it makes sense to go the HPX-170 route. Plus I like the idea of a less compressed format and the other attributes DVCPRO-HD offers.

What I'm really happy to hear in these responses is "avoid HDV." I was very confused by that format, as it seemed a logical step from my XL2 but everything I read on the Web, including on this forum, says stay away from it. So I will!

Thanks again, I really appreciate your posting!
 
The 170 is very nice. I recommend getting it and a T2i. With your 35 years of Photography experience you will know all the hard stuff to learn and pick up the easy stuff quickly. It makes a great B-Cam and compliments a 170/200 nicely.


I believe HDV was dead from the start. I feel lucky to have made it through the last couple years only dealing with HDV once.
 
Since I have a pile of Nikon glass, I really am waiting for their new DSLR lineup, which is supposedly imminent. First things first, and that's awaiting a possible client's wishes before I'll need the 170 or Nikon's new cam. I'm pretty gun-shy of buying to be prepared these days, I'll buy when there's money coming in to pay for it. But I am excited about the possibilities with both cameras. Great techno-time we live in, eh?

No HDV footage will ever grace my G5. And I think I'm glad it won't!
 
That Nikon glass can work with all the Canon's and at $799 MSRP for T2i body 1 or 2 jobs will pay for it, but I know what your saying. The main thing is unless you have a legacy HDV investment there are much better options in this crazy new era.
 
Yeah, it's very tempting, but I'm gonna wait until I see what Nikon has to offer, and what Canon's improved models offer, too. Canon's DSLR video is impressive, but I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg from all of these companies on this tech. Maybe some day the iPhone will shoot RED.
 
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