Audio solutions for a T2i. Basic interview / narration.

F

fuzzybabybunny

Active member
I shoot videos for real estate and I want an audio solution for recording my clients as I film them walking around the house and showing features. So I don't need anything too crazy. I figure that a good wireless LAV mic will be enough. They'll be moving around, so I'd like to avoid cords. They can be outside as well as they show off the front and back of the house.


I'm shooting with a T2i w/ Magic Lantern and possibly will upgrade to a 5DMKII in the future. At this point I just want something that records clear audio and won't break the bank, but can also have room to grow as my business grows.

Do I really need to spend 500+ for each system like the sticky says? I've got a team working separate jobs, so any gear I purchase would need to be doubled or tripled.

Jeremy's Audio Questionnaire
1. What is the budget that we are working with (either immediately or over the next few months) - $500 or less? The less the better.
2. What type of films are you doing (short dramatic films, feature dramatic, documentary, interviews) - interviews but on location
3. Are your locations PRIMARILY interiors or exteriors? - both
4. Will you be shooting outside at all with sound? - yup
5. What level of experience do you have with sound? - none, zip
6. What is the outlet you are hoping to have with the projects (DVD release for profit, web distribution, theatrical) - web, youtube streaming
7. Is this purchase for a specific project or are you looking to purchase a kit for general future projects? - general future projects
8. Why do you feel that it is beneficial for you to buy sound gear versus hiring a professional (or networking for free with a professional) to do your audio? - my clients have asked for sound from me and I want to keep everything in-house
9. Will you have a dedicated person to run sound (even a friend to hold a boompole)? - nope
10. Do you notice the difference between good sound and poor sound when you are watching films? - uhhhh.... yes, sound from a camcorder vs sound from a good movie is night and day.
 
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Thanks for reading the stickies first!

Yes, the "$500" general rule is pretty much it. Below that and, well... you get what you pay for.

If you search around DVXUser, you'll find many posts talking about recording sound in-camera with a DSLR. Most of them aren't favorable, and even those that are will admit that there are much better solutions. That said, with ML installed and for what you're doing, you may get away with it. It's still better to go with an external recorder, but you do have to start somewhere. Either way, you're going to need a headphone monitoring solution. Fortunately, with a T2i and ML, and with the help of a special cable, that can be done. Just remember that you must, must, must listen to your audio as you record. Leaving it to chance will result in some unpleasant surprises in post.

Wireless lav systems are great for real estate walk-and-talks. The benefit of the sticky's recommended model, the G3, is that it comes with a shoe-mount plate for the receiver to go right on top of the camera. I believe that the Sony UWP-V1 has a shoe-mount plate as well.

Again... yes, plan to spend at least $500 per channel (more like $600), and more than that to upgrade the lav. The Sennheiser stock lav is not the greatest, but it's a place to start.
 
I know it can be tempting to buy the cheaper systems, but you are doing yourself a big favour if you don't. When you start reading and hearing a lot of discussions about audio equipment, you notice that there isn't a lot of consensus about what is best or has the best value for a given situation/use. The answer is always: It depends. That said, when you start to look up wireless systems, almost all seem to be in agreement that anything below the G2 or G3 is not worth it.
 
As you are looking budget, I recommend and use reguarly the Audio Technica 1800 series of wireless. It is still in the 500 dollar per channel range, but it is a solid solution, and is not the slightly more expensive G2 / G3 setups.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._ATW_1811D_ATW_1811D_Wireless_Microphone.html

Also, for interior and exterior, you might want the speaker to just hold the microphone, and use a plug-on transmitter. This is the approach I use, and it works well up to about 30 ft, depending on the walls/interior.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/706540-REG/Audio_Technica_ATW_1812C_ATW_1812C_1800_Series.html

If you are worried about buying Audio Technica of the G3, then just get the G3 and spend the more $ and be done with it. The package is a little smaller, and will work with a camera a 'bit' better as it is shoe-mountable.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/618741-REG/Sennheiser_EW112PG3_B_EW112_p_G3_Camera_Mount.html

Ian
 
Thanks for the tips guys. I guess I will just bite the bullet and get the G2/G3 setups.

1. I think that the realtor will be walking around showing the house, so wires would really get in the way. I also want it to look as natural as possible, and it's hard to do that when you're constantly having to hold a microphone. And you're working with a client who has no experience in presenting (could accidentally move the microphone around without thinking, changing the recorded volume, etc)

2. Audio Technica 1800 and G2/G3. I am no where near experienced enough to know what the pros and cons are of each :( I hear that a G2/G3 is a surefire success, right?

3. Let me get all the gear straight:

a. Lav gets pinned or taped to somewhere on the realtor's chest area.
b. Wire from the lav mic goes to the transmitter that's hooked behind the realtor, on a belt or pants.
c. Transmitter sends audio signal to the receiver mounted to the hotshoe of the T2i.
d. Transmitter has an audio wire going into the T2i.
e. When I start shooting and recording video/audio on the T2i, the audio gets automatically recorded and synced with the movie file, right?

Now, since I'm shooting with Magic Lantern, will I be able to get away with this direct feed of audio into the camera? I've read about amplifiers, something, something, JuicedLink, something, something, mumble mumble. Huh?

4. Noise floor and dynamic range: do I have to worry about these if I go with a G2/G3? I'm thinking not Dynamic Range, since it's just speech. I'm not recording live music or anything.

5. And I guess I have to monitor the audio as it's being recorded, huh? Do I just plug my headphones into the Receiver that's on the hotshoe and monitor the audio in real time as I'm recording?
 
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Oh, I'm also trying to find a definition for "diversity" but I'm having trouble figuring it out.

~$600 per channel.... so if I want two people talking at the same time in the interview, I have to give the second person their own G2/G3 lav mic, receiver, and transmitter? A single receiver can't get both audio streams at the same time and record it all into the same video file?

Would it be possible to ghetto rig a single wireless lav mic surrounded with foam onto a boom pole and record both people at the same time in this way?
 
I know the whole "you get what you pay for" thing is real popular around here, but sometimes "you pay too much for more than you need" is also applicable.

I simply cannot afford a G2/G3 setup right now. It's 2nd on my list of gear upgrades (after a camera upgrade), so I definitely want to get one, but I need to shoot NOW so that I can make money and afford to upgrade later.

To that end, I went ahead and bought the Audio Technica Pro 88W wireless lav kit. It works great with my Tascam DR-40 and so far (knock on wood) I've had zero issues with it, even though it uses the dreaded "VHF frequency". I have always had the camera/receiver within 20-feet of the talent and the 1 (one) time I had an issue with interference, I flipped to the B channel and the interference was gone. For me, it's a workable short-term solution until I can save the money to get a G2/G3 system. And for $100 it was worth buying just to experiment and see if it would work... thankfully it does.
 
You should monitor the audio off the camera, not the wireless, because you need to make sure the levels on the camera are ok. You could have good levels on the wireless receiver, and if you listen to just that, you'd think you are ok..but what happens if your levels are too high or too low on your camera and you aren't monitoring the camera? You'll never know until you load the video onto your computer and check it out, and then it is too late.

Putting a lav on a boom is never a good idea. Lav mics have a usable range of 10 -12 inches, if that. Beyond that, they are worthless. If you want to boom, then it's a whole different story, and involves bringing in another person to boom for you. As much as I'd love to say "yeah, hire a boom op", I can say that doing that really limits what you are trying to do in this specific situation. My mother is a realtor, so I get exactly what you are trying to do here. If it were me, I'd get a Rode Videomic, or something similar, and plug that into the audio in of your camera. That is your REFERENCE TRACK. That is not the usable track. I'd then get one or two wireless systems and run those into a small two channel recorder, like a Tascam DR100. That is your real audio track. The idea with getting a reference track is to help sync up the audio with the DR100 good audio later. A camera mounted mic is usually not a great idea, especially in this situation where people are moving around and not always facing the camera. I'd then get a Norbert Sport DSLR cage that will allow you to get stable handheld video as well as mount everything you need around the camera. Are you trying to record the audio of just the realtor, or the clients as well? If you want their audio you'll need to get them wireless systems, too. If it were me, I'd have a minimum of 3 wireless systems per "shoot". One for the realtor, and two for prospective clients (since usually the clients come in "twos"...husband and wife..single person with a friend helping them look at homes).

DigitalBard mentioned that the PRO88 wireless are in the "dreaded VHF band" of wireless". That's actually not all that dreaded these days. It used to be that everyone had VHF wireless systems, and they were fixed frequency, so they were prone to problems. These days, most people are up in the UHF frequencies, and there is very little going on down in the VHF world.

This is a tough one, because depending on your real estate market, you could easily overspend on what you are trying to do, and it may take a while to see the ROI on this, but at least it is a tax deductible business expense.
 
DigitalBard said:
I know the whole "you get what you pay for" thing is real popular around here, but sometimes "you pay too much for more than you need" is also applicable.

I simply cannot afford a G2/G3 setup right now. It's 2nd on my list of gear upgrades (after a camera upgrade), so I definitely want to get one, but I need to shoot NOW so that I can make money and afford to upgrade later.

To that end, I went ahead and bought the Audio Technica Pro 88W wireless lav kit. It works great with my Tascam DR-40 and so far (knock on wood) I've had zero issues with it, even though it uses the dreaded "VHF frequency". I have always had the camera/receiver within 20-feet of the talent and the 1 (one) time I had an issue with interference, I flipped to the B channel and the interference was gone. For me, it's a workable short-term solution until I can save the money to get a G2/G3 system. And for $100 it was worth buying just to experiment and see if it would work... thankfully it does.
Click to expand...

Personally, I have a hard time risking $100 on something. That's not a small amount of money. It is, in the larger picture, very inexpensive... but I prefer not to gamble with my money that way on something that I may or may not like.

The issue, by the way, with systems like the Pro88 (remember: if they have to put "pro" in the name, it usually is not) is not the VHF frequency set. It's the cheap construction, poor transmission/reception (has to do with circuits, not frequency), noisy and rough compander, and generally pretty poor-quality lav.

It's going to break, sooner than later, whether it's because it gets dropped or the cheap circuits start to deteriorate, and then you're going to have to buy another. Disposable consumerism eats cash over time. Buy right the first time, and you don't waste money.
 
Guhhhhh... this is way, way more involved than I thought it would be, haha.

Lol, all I want is an audio system without wires for ease of movement of the subject and to keep their hands free as they show off the "product." And have maybe another wireless microphone for a second client. And to have all the audio saved to the video that I'm shooting and already synced. And for it to sound good.

Why do I even have to sync the audio with the video after the fact? Can't it just be synced up on the spot while it's being recorded along with the video? Why would I ever want the audio to *not* be synced with the video?

As for monitoring the audio: How do I monitor audio right off of the T2i besides just playing the clip over again and listening to the audio on the T2i's small speaker? The T2i has a 3.5mm stereo mike socket (audio in, to be used for the mic/receiver combo to record the audio with the video), Remote terminal (for remote shutter cords), a combined A/V output and an HDMI socket - for playing the contents directly to a TV. I don't see an audio out where I would be hooking up my headphones to.

Confused.

The $100 solution is really really tempting and it seems to "work" fine for DigitalBard.
 
fuzzybabybunny said:
2. Audio Technica 1800 and G2/G3. I am no where near experienced enough to know what the pros and cons are of each :( I hear that a G2/G3 is a surefire success, right?
Click to expand...

The 1800 has had reports of being a bit noisy. I've not had the chance to play with one myself, but reveiws I've seen have been mixed while reviews for the G2 and G3 systems are consistently good (and I have two G2 systems that I use regularly).

fuzzybabybunny said:
3. Let me get all the gear straight:

a. Lav gets pinned or taped to somewhere on the realtor's chest area.
b. Wire from the lav mic goes to the transmitter that's hooked behind the realtor, on a belt or pants.
c. Transmitter sends audio signal to the receiver mounted to the hotshoe of the T2i.
d. Transmitter has an audio wire going into the T2i.
e. When I start shooting and recording video/audio on the T2i, the audio gets automatically recorded and synced with the movie file, right?
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Regarding "a", you can simply clip the lav onto a shirt or jacket if that's easier and you don't mind seeing the mic. Just make sure to dress the cable under clothing, and keep the transmitter in a place that the camera won't see.

Regarding "e", Canon DSLR cameras have one little quirk in video recording: the audio is always about 2 frames off from the video. You might want to go ahead and invest in a dumb slate. Using that at the head of each shot will give you a reference point to check the sync of your picture and sound. If the frame of video where the sticks come together is not the same as the frame of audio where you hear the clap, then an adjustment is in order (simply sliding one or the other on the time line).

fuzzybabybunny said:
Now, since I'm shooting with Magic Lantern, will I be able to get away with this direct feed of audio into the camera? I've read about amplifiers, something, something, JuicedLink, something, something, mumble mumble. Huh?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can plug the receiver's output directly into the camera using the 1/8">1/8" cable supplied with the wireless system.

Boxes like the JuicedLink and Beachtek devices are made to do a few things. They adapt XLR inputs to the camera's 1/8" mic-level input. They feature mixer functions (left, center, right pan control, level control). Some of them offer phantom power, which is a small voltage that certain microphones need in order to operate. You do not need phantom with the wireless receiver.

fuzzybabybunny said:
4. Noise floor and dynamic range: do I have to worry about these if I go with a G2/G3? I'm thinking not Dynamic Range, since it's just speech. I'm not recording live music or anything.
Click to expand...

You'll have more impact on dynamic range and noise floor from the camera. As I mentioned earlier, in-camera DSLR audio is not the best in the world. It's much improved in the T2i with Magic Lantern, though recording to a dedicated audio recorder is generally going to yield cleaner sound (when used properly, of course).

fuzzybabybunny said:
5. And I guess I have to monitor the audio as it's being recorded, huh? Do I just plug my headphones into the Receiver that's on the hotshoe and monitor the audio in real time as I'm recording?
Click to expand...

You need to listen from the camera, and with the T2i that requires Magic Lantern (which you have) and a USB headphone adapter cable. I linked to the cable needed for this in my first response.

fuzzybabybunny said:
Oh, I'm also trying to find a definition for "diversity" but I'm having trouble figuring it out.

~$600 per channel.... so if I want two people talking at the same time in the interview, I have to give the second person their own G2/G3 lav mic, receiver, and transmitter? A single receiver can't get both audio streams at the same time and record it all into the same video file?
Click to expand...

Diversity has to do with antennae. Non-diversity receivers have a single antenna. If the signal gets interrupted, there's a dropout in the audio signal. Diversity receivers have dual antennae. The receiver unit is constantly analyzing the reception between the two, and automatically switches back and forth to the strongest signal. This doesn't eliminate dropouts entirely, but it greatly reduces them.

A single receiver cannot handle two transmitters at the same time. That means that there are two signals transmitting on the same frequency, which means that there are two signals fighting for dominance. The receiver cannot sort them out.

fuzzybabybunny said:
Would it be possible to ghetto rig a single wireless lav mic surrounded with foam onto a boom pole and record both people at the same time in this way?
Click to expand...

As Dave said... bad idea. If you need to have two people, you need to have two wireless systems. This is where a mixer, or an external recorder, will come in handy. The only hitch with second-system sound (external recorder) is that you have to sync the audio files with the video in post. This really isn't a huge deal, though.
 
Fuzzy,

There are countless (and I do mean countless) DSLR shooters who ask questions like this here looking for solutions. Some are realistic in the quest for good audio, others start off with " I just spent $3000 on a cam, tripod and lights, and now I want Hollywood audio on my remaining budget of $100". They often don't like the answers they get here. OK now for some answers; recording to a dslr is going to be a compromise at best. You may love the images, but a dslr was simply not made to record audio. No matter what you do, it will be a serious compromise. Video cams, while not perfect for audio, will usually offer you most if not all of what you need for decent recording including xlr inputs, phantom power, metering, line-in and mic-in options, monitoring options, and some filtering, etc. I am not saying that video cams will record pristine audio, because they won't, but they do offer enough to get by for shooting interviews and basic audio for video. DSLR shooters don't get the luxury of having those features built into cam, so they mostly shoot dual audio to a dedicated recorder. At the most primitive level, they shoot to a little $75 handy recorder of some sort and live with it, syncing it up in post. After that, you start adding more pro gear which will improve your audio greatly, if you have the skill to use it. Until you get to the point where you have decent mics, a mixer, a decent recorder, pole, mounts and wind protection, and the skill to use it, your audio will be still be a compromise. You may be wishing to skip this expensive step, but a good audio kit is going to cost as much or more than your cam, and in the case of a T2i, quite a bit more. I'm not trying to be the grim reaper, or throw a cold shower on your ambition, but there has to be a reality check for those who need good audio, but can't afford it. In your eyes, the T2i might make nice images, but in your ears, realistically, you need a different solution.

Best Regards,
Grant
 
Whew, thanks for the explanation!

So here's the shopping list. This is going to be tough to pay off... audio by itself is more than the body and the lens.

1. cardioid microphone or non-cardioid? $600

Sennheiser ew 112-p G3-B Wireless Microphone System


http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=213690458&sellerid=13505447

or

Sennheiser ew 122-p G3-A Wireless Microphone System


http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=213690463&sellerid=13505447

2. Sescom DSLR-550D-HOCF A/V Out Headphone Monitoring Cable - holy jesus $50 for a cable, and it only works for the 550D?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...50D_HOCF_DSLR_550D_HOCF_AV_Out_Headphone.html

3. Earbuds: $20

Now if I want a second channel:

4. Second G3: $600

5. Rode VideoMic Directional Video Condenser Microphone w/Mount - $150 for just recording junk audio to help sync the real audio

http://www.amazon.com/Rode-VideoMic-Directional-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B0007U9SOC

6. Tascam DR-100 Professional Portable Digital Audio Recorder - $270

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...100_DR_100_Professional_Portable_Digital.html

7. Additional SD card for the recorder - $20


SUMMARY:

For a single channel, it would cost $600 + $50 + $20 = $670

For just an additional channel, it would cost $600 + $600 + $50 + $20 + $150 + $270 + $20 = $1710

For a third channel, it would be.... oh wait, the Tascam DR-100 only supports recording 2 channels. This is 3 channels, so we gotta throw in another recorder. Or how about the Tascam DR-40 for $160 that records 4 channels by itself? Why even go for the DR-100?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

$600 + $600 + $600 + $50 + $20 + $150 + $160 +$20 = $2200

And this is just for the audio portion.
 
I'd get the DR-40. The DR-100 you linked to has been replaced by the DR-100mkII. The DR-40 is a great bargain, and with the new firmware update allows for independent input level control. It does record 4 channels, but two of those are either a) safety copies (lower level) of the two primary channels, or; b) the internal mics.

With the money you don't spend on the DR-100 vs. the DR-40, you can get better headphones, such as the Sony MDR-7506.

If you want to record multiple mics to individual tracks, you're going to need to move to something like the Tascam DR-680.

As for the lav with the wireless system, get omnidirectional. Cardioid is going to be a hindrance.
 
Alex H. said:
Personally, I have a hard time risking $100 on something. That's not a small amount of money. It is, in the larger picture, very inexpensive... but I prefer not to gamble with my money that way on something that I may or may not like.

The issue, by the way, with systems like the Pro88 (remember: if they have to put "pro" in the name, it usually is not) is not the VHF frequency set. It's the cheap construction, poor transmission/reception (has to do with circuits, not frequency), noisy and rough compander, and generally pretty poor-quality lav.

It's going to break, sooner than later, whether it's because it gets dropped or the cheap circuits start to deteriorate, and then you're going to have to buy another. Disposable consumerism eats cash over time. Buy right the first time, and you don't waste money.
Click to expand...

It wasn't really a risk... B&H was selling them for $100 with free shipping brand new and they're selling for $90 average on eBay shipped, so I knew that if it didn't meet my needs, I could quickly sell it on eBay for at most a $10 loss. Worth the risk when I absolutely had to have a wireless system better than the $15 Bolun crap and I absolutely can't afford $500 right now.

The facts are, for me, that it does its job. And it does its job well. Just as with anything electronic, if you know its limitations you can work within those. Every time I read about an issue with the Pro 88W system, it's because the user is pushing the limits. I'm shooting interviews and commercials. I never have the receiver more than 30 feet (I actually try to stay within 20 feet) of the transmitter and I make sure nothing comes between the two (no walls, no cars, no objects. Sure, it will eventually break down, but right now it's allowed me to get shots I had a very hard time with before using wired mics. Going wireless has literally halved my shoot times in most cases which means I work more efficiently, so I work less per job and therefore make more per hour on each job. Which, subsequently, allows me to schedule more jobs and make more money.

I cut a deal with the 'wife' that a minimum of $50 per paid job goes into my upgrade budget for new gear. Therefore getting the Pro 88W now and reaping the benefits of being able to make more means I'll be able to save more quickly for the G2/G3 after I upgrade my camera (which I'll be doing this month).

Sometimes you just have to get something cheap and make it work in order to reach a higher goal. Otherwise, you may never get there.
 
Alex H. said:
I'd get the DR-40. The DR-100 you linked to has been replaced by the DR-100mkII. The DR-40 is a great bargain, and with the new firmware update allows for independent input level control. It does record 4 channels, but two of those are either a) safety copies (lower level) of the two primary channels, or; b) the internal mics.

With the money you don't spend on the DR-100 vs. the DR-40, you can get better headphones, such as the Sony MDR-7506.

If you want to record multiple mics to individual tracks, you're going to need to move to something like the Tascam DR-680.

As for the lav with the wireless system, get omnidirectional. Cardioid is going to be a hindrance.
Click to expand...

I totally agree on the DR-40. It's fantastic for the price and a much welcome upgrade from my Zoom H1. However, I'd get both an omni and carioid lav, you'll run into situations where you wish you had the cardioid (though not as often as you'll want the omni). I shot a commercial on a noisy car lot and after coaching the client about not turning his head, I was able to get much better audio than with an omni. Omni's are great when you have near total control of the sound environment.
 
+1 for the DR-40.
If you have to choose a lav, get an omni. In noisy situations a 'tighter' omni lav can help. For those instances, I like the ECM-55 .. unfortunately it's huge.
In my tenure, I've only used a cardioid lav a few times, and all have been in conjunction with PA systems were feedback was an issue. So sure, a cardioid lav is certainly nice to have. (if you have some extra $$$ lying around)
 
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