Audio options are totally confusing.

[Amadou]

We just rented an FS7 as second camera. We are using a shotgun microphone and going into LINE 1 with XLR cable and monitoring with headphones. Looking at the audio menu settings and trying to figure out what they mean is a nightmare. The manual explains nothing. Internet FS7 videos do not discuss audio. Could somebody please explain what this means.

1 Audio Level + Side.... as opposed to....... Audio level. ???? What's the difference ?

2 INPUT1 MIC Reference –60dB / –50dB / –40dB ......... what does this mean? Should it be left at 50?

3 CH1&2 AGC Mode Mono / Stereo..... what does this mean? No explaination in the manual.

4 Audio input level... Why would one set it up here when there is a dial on the side already?

5 Limiter Mode Off / –6dB / –9dB / –12dB / –15dB / –17dB.... again... should this be left off to avoid issues or should it be on at all times....?

6 Final question: The level meters at the bottom of the display are very small. Is there a way to make the more visible while using the camera?

Thank you very much for your help. I hope I will be spared the rant about getting a professionnal sound recordist. We don't have the budget. Thank you.

 

[GaryNattrass]

Don't know this particular camera but here is a go at answering the questions.

1: I would presume this means that you can either set the audio level on the menu disabling the side rotary control or you can choose to set a base level in the menu but still have external adjustment. It may be that you just set it to menu only to prevent accidental level changes if you move the side adjustment. My P2 camera has a level control fof the front camera mic input but I tend to disable it as it is near the zoom controls.

2: This is the mic input sensitivity level and -50 should be Ok for most mics but you can also add 10db for a dynamic mic or reduce it by 10db if the level is too high from a shotgun or lav mic.

3: This is an auto gain linking function so if you want the levels on 1+2 to be automaticall adjusted together you can do that or if you have diferent microphone on the two inputs the AGC will work independantley on each mic.

4: See answer 1. You can disable to external control and this is the same on my panasonic P2 camera so it stops the level changing accidentaly.

5: This is the threshold for the peak limiter and -12 would be my personal choice but if you want more limiting set it to -9.

6: Don't know this camera but certainly on my panasonic P2 camera I can assign the meters to a dedicated quick view button and it shows them larger on the screen.

Hope this helps.

P.S and if it is like other sony cameras I have seen with input selector switches make sure it is on mic or mic +48v if using a phantom powered mic not line when using a microphone.

 

[Alex H.]

1 Audio Level + Side.... as opposed to....... Audio level. ???? What's the difference ?

LVL routs control through the menu. SIDE allows control through the dedicated audio dials.

From someone who knows the guts of this camera well:

The ability to change the audio levels using a menu is so that you have the option of using the ASSIGNABLE DIAL on the grip and/or the IRIS DIAL on the side of the camera to change levels on the fly during handheld shooting.

2 INPUT1 MIC Reference –60dB / –50dB / –40dB ......... what does this mean? Should it be left at 50?

This is preamp sensitivity. It may seem a little counterintuitive, but essentially it tells the preamp how much amplification is needed coming into the camera. The lower the number (-60dB), the more boost is needed; this is for weaker signals like dynamic microphones. The higher the number (-40dB), the less boost is needed; this is useful for things like Sennheiser G3/G4 wireless receivers that have relatively hot output signals. Remember that we’re dealing with negative numbers: 60 is bigger than 40, but -40 is bigger than -60. For condenser mics with phantom power, -50dB is a good starting place.

3 CH1&2 AGC Mode Mono / Stereo..... what does this mean? No explaination in the manual.

AGC means “Automatic Gain Control”. This feature set is activated when you flip the switch (there’s one next to each audio level dial) on the side of the camera from MANUAL to AUTO. All you really need to know about AGC is to avoid using it at all. Keep your camera set for manual audio level settings.

4 Audio input level... Why would one set it up here when there is a dial on the side already?

See above r.e.: LVL+SIDE.

5 Limiter Mode Off / –6dB / –9dB / –12dB / –15dB / –17dB.... again... should this be left off to avoid issues or should it be on at all times....?

I’m not a fan of using limiters for in-camera audio. Since you’re just using the one mic, connect it to Input 1 and set your Ch. 2 to record from Input 1. Set the record level on Ch. 2 to be about -10dB from Ch. 1 (in other words, 10dB lower) as a safety in case of peaks/clipping on Ch. 1.

6 Final question: The level meters at the bottom of the display are very small. Is there a way to make the more visible while using the camera?

Hit the STATUS CHECK button, and then select the audio status display. You’ll get a more detailed look at what’s going on, but it isn’t a tool used during recording as it shows only the audio meters and no picture. You can use it to check your levels when you set your shot so you’re more confident of your levels once you hit record.

 

[Amadou]

Alex, thank you very much. Could you please tell me where I need to go in the menu to set the record level on Ch. 2 to be about -10dB from Ch. 1 (in other words, 10dB lower)? I'm confused.
What about audio lecvel + sides... why should I use a double gain if audio level alone does the job? We use a Senheiser 416. Thank you.

 

[Alex H.]

Alex, thank you very much. Could you please tell me where I need to go in the menu to set the record level on Ch. 2 to be about -10dB from Ch. 1 (in other words, 10dB lower)? I'm confused.

Not in a menu. Use the audio level dial for Ch. 2 on the side of the camera, after you’ve set all your gain staging for the mic on input 1.

What about audio lecvel + sides... why should I use a double gain if audio level alone does the job? We use a Senheiser 416. Thank you.

Doesn’t matter which mic you use.

Again, from someone who knows this camera much more intimately than I, using “LVL” allows you to assign level control to multi-function dials.

But you know what? Pick one. Any one. Use it. If it doesn’t get you the results you want, try another. This is serious advice, because sometimes trial and error is the best way to learn. Don’t do this on an actual shoot day, but spend some time before the shoot testing setups and settings. When you get to where you want to be, write down what you did and use that as a starting point on the shoot.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Actually, that is not the intended purpose of the Audio Level + Side menus and would provide no benefit at all if used as described above in post #3. And the CH1&2 AGC Mode Mono / Stereo menu determines whether AGC for channels 1 and 2 are linked together, or if if the two channels operate independently of each other.

 

[Alex H.]

Actually, that is not the intended purpose of the Audio Level + Side menus and would provide no benefit at all if used as described above in post #3.

Okay, but would you please clarify?

Sony’s documentation of these features is pretty poor and the audio settings are relatively complex compared to other cameras. I’m going on my experience and what little published information is available (and there’s almost nothing). It would be helpful to know what those features are truly intended for. I don’t mind being wrong, but I’d love to know why.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Okay, but would you please clarify?

No, I really don't care to clarify because the OP has said multiple times that he doesn't want any advice from me and I don't want to incur his wrath by accidentally saying something he doesn't like. But Alex, I will be happy to give you an answer. The ability to change the audio levels using a menu is so that you have the option of using the ASSIGNABLE DIAL on the grip and/or the IRIS DIAL on the side of the camera to change levels on the fly during handheld shooting.

https://www.vortexmediastore.com/products/sony-pxw-fs7-field-guide-book-3rd-edition
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/fs7

 

[JPNola]

3 CH1&2 AGC Mode Mono / Stereo..... what does this mean? No explaination in the manual.

"AGC" is a fairly common acronym in the industry and the manual assumes the reader knows what it means. Like "ISO". The author(s) of the manual assume you know what it is already. That said, the manual does in one section of the manual inform as to what AGC means:



Any new device can be maddening at first. My 83 year old mother is currently learning the iPhone for the first time and it is driving her batty at times. Well, to be honest, she's always been a little batty.

 

[egproductions]

A lot of these camera audio settings are settings you would find in most professional cameras. Once you understand how audio works in general, the settings are quit obvious. Since it's a professional peice of equipment, the camera manual assumes a certain amount of prerequisite camera knowledge. Lower end camera manuals tend to spell things out more.

 

[Amadou]

So can you or can you not set channel 2 to follow all channel 1 levels with a 20 percent lower volume than 1?

 

[Amadou]

Levels + Sides. The paradox.

Levels + Sides. The paradox.

The audio Levels + Sides option in the FS7 menu is a major paradox. If you want to set levels on the side (as most people will do no matter what) the why not simply select sides? The Levels + sides option suggests that there might be some sort of advantage in not simply using the sides dials. So what could possibly the advantage? I just don't get it. And if people suggest the sides dial should just be used for fine tuning... then I would ask why they can't fine tune with just sides. The difference between sides and levels + sides totally eludes me. Does anybody know what the levels + sides option brings to the table?

 

[Alex H.]

The audio Levels + Sides option in the FS7 menu is a major paradox. If you want to set levels on the side (as most people will do no matter what) the why not simply select sides? The Levels + sides option suggests that there might be some sort of advantage in not simply using the sides dials. So what could possibly the advantage? I just don't get it. And if people suggest the sides dial should just be used for fine tuning... then I would ask why they can't fine tune with just sides. The difference between sides and levels + sides totally eludes me. Does anybody know what the levels + sides option brings to the table?

You already have a thread on this discussion, so I’m merging this post into that thread. Please stop posting the same question in a new thread each time.

You have someone here who knows that camera inside and out and can offer you an answer... but you don’t seem to be willing to listen. Give him a chance and you might just get it all figured out.

 

[egproductions]

So can you or can you not set channel 2 to follow all channel 1 levels with a 20 percent lower volume than 1?

You cannot from within the camera. You can use an external/dedicated mixer that sends bracketed tracks to two seperate outputs if thats something you need. Bracketed audio channels is something you see in prosumer audio gear (ex tascam) but not so much with high end gear. Instead you see better monitoring and limiters. I dont know of any camera that has, what audio professionals would consider, high end audio circuitry (preamps,Limiters, etc.). You can record mic level inputs into the FS7 but anyone serious about capturing high end audio is going to record unsynced audio or use the camera as a line level recorder and thus a lot of the camera’s audio settings lends themselves to this type of audio chain.

 

[Amadou]

In what way am I not willing to listen? Nobody here has explained why the sides level requires the in menu level. The in menu level is redundant. It would not be redundant if it could be set seperately for channels 1 and 2. But since the internal level is a general setting for both channels, the only way to control the channels seperately is the sides dial... making the internal level useless. Also, it appears to me that setting the gain to -60hz is the least noisy option. Now I might be wrong about this but based on everything I read here it seems to boil down to this... bringing me back to the quedtion: why use "levels + sides" over "sides" ?

 

[Run&Gun]

In what way am I not willing to listen? Nobody here has explained why the sides level requires the in menu level. The in menu level is redundant. It would not be redundant if it could be set seperately for channels 1 and 2. But since the internal level is a general setting for both channels, the only way to control the channels seperately is the sides dial... making the internal level useless. Also, it appears to me that setting the gain to -60hz is the least noisy option. Now I might be wrong about this but based on everything I read here it seems to boil down to this... bringing me back to the quedtion: why use "levels + sides" over "sides" ?

From earlier in the thread:

... The ability to change the audio levels using a menu is so that you have the option of using the ASSIGNABLE DIAL on the grip and/or the IRIS DIAL on the side of the camera to change levels on the fly during handheld shooting.

 

[Amadou]

Does this mean that if I assign the levels to the iris, I can control the internal levels on the iris dial and set a 20 percent volume difference on the sides dials?

 

[paulears]

I've never found the need to waste an audio track to cope with me being unable to set levels properly. With the limiter, and a sensible gain setting, I don't quite get where this idea came from. In most cases, I'll run the on camera mic a nd an extra one of some kind - exactly what depends on what I'm doing, but maybe a wireless receiver, or another mic of some kind - sometimes an omni to give me more choice afterwards.

The information you can get simply by looking at how cameras have their controls laid out is something professionals don't need to use manuals for - as even between makes and models the similarities are clear. Two XLRS usually means one can be routed to it's own channel or switched to let one mic go to both channels. Many now just leave their settings so the limiter catches peaks and then the two gain controls can be individual used manually. Some might set one lower than the other for safety, I never do. The mic, mic with +48 or line switches get the most use on my camera - I'm constantly connecting to different things and this seems a common system on all the common camera models. Every camera seems to have it's own little foibles, and you get to know them. Manuals are for finding out how to do the rarer things, not to use as instructions - they're for reference. I firmly believe that if you MUST use a manual to get going, then the product is lacking. Earlier up, Gary mentioned that while he'd not used this exact camera, he could deduce exactly how the audio system worked from simply looking at the controls. They really are very common in how they work between makes so camera for can pick up a new camera (to them) and use it effectively with a minimal learning curve. Camera sound is NOT a complex subject. Source, power, gain and limiting plus usually a get out of jail auto feature. Dynamic range on. the digital audio means that chasing the top of the scale to minimise noise just isn't as important. Peaks half way up the meter scale are pretty noise free, so gain can be increased quite a bit in the edit, with little impact, unlike old fashioned analogue audio.

I get the feeling all the questions here are things that an hour spent with the camera would have answered. I've not had bad audio from a camera for quite a few years now, unless I was stupid and didn't;t notice the input on line was producing nothing on the meter, or the reverse, the line level input was pinning the top as it was set to mic level. Simple stuff.

 

[morgan_moore]

Am.

I chip in with what I do.

1 mic, pot 1 on about 5-7, pot 2 on about 3-5.

Ive never felt the need to go into the menu apart from pop concerts which were super loud so I had to dial down the total sensitivity.

Its not a major deal to spin both pots a bit - they don't need to be tied together.

In four years of owning the camera ive never investigated the other options or needed to.

--

tracks 3-4 are of value if you have the sony lav system.

 

[GaryNattrass]

I agree with Paul and have never in 38 years of broadcast and audio for my own had to do split level recording.

Do people run two cameras with different exposure or just get it right in the first place or adjust as you shoot?

Limiters are not the work of the devil and as a dubbing mixer for many many years we use limiters all the time, indeed my current job at SKY in the UK doing all forms of sport totally relies on limiters and compressors with a liberal amount of Calrec Apollo automixer to help me out.

As my reply to the OP seems to have been totally ignored I sometimes wonder why I actually bother on here trying to help people at times if like Paul says they can't be bothered to try and learn their own cameras and try things out.