audio levels in a film.....

Sithxace

Sithxace

Well-known member
im editing a film in fcp and theres a lot of tense scenes with tension building etc. Im taught that audio levels should always stay as -12db... is there any exceptions? When im building up tension with music or sounds it doesnt sound right keeping everything at -12db as oppose to letting it get higher etc.


what are your thoughts on this?
 
That's more of a recording level.
For playback and your final mix you can go right up to -0.001 if you want to, if you think it will enhance the scene. I usually keep peaks below -0.3 though, just to be safe, because some dvd players will distort if it's too close to 0.

I would guess most of my mixes usually end up with average levels between -12 to -6.

If you have a big bombastic scene but limit it to -12, it will seem weak, so yeah, kick it in the pants!
 
Sithxace said:
im editing a film in fcp and theres a lot of tense scenes with tension building etc. Im taught that audio levels should always stay as -12db... is there any exceptions? When im building up tension with music or sounds it doesnt sound right keeping everything at -12db as oppose to letting it get higher etc.


what are your thoughts on this?
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-12dB is your peak, mostly. This does not mean that every single second of audio has to stay at -12dB. Dynamic range is the space between your peak level and lowest audio level in the mix.

Dynamic range for broadcast is generally pretty small... peaks at an absolute -12dB and nothing really dropping below -20 or so, depending on the broadcaster's specs. Dialog might be heavily compressed and limited to keep even the dips up around -16dB for things like news magazines and lifestyle programming.

For motion picture, dynamic range is pretty wide... peak at -12, though sudden sounds like gunshots or wood snapping may hit briefly at -6. Dialog will probably ride around -22 to -18, with shouts and yelps at peak level.

For a truly effective mix, you might look into having some one do a professional audio post treatment to your sound. Mixing within FCP is severely limited. You can get a lot more done in STP, though the program is buggy, but you need to know what you're doing if you're going to try and post your own sound. Plus, you need true mix monitors and not just computer speakers.
 
Tim Joy said:
That's more of a recording level.
For playback and your final mix you can go right up to -0.001 if you want to, if you think it will enhance the scene. I usually keep peaks below -0.3 though, just to be safe, because some dvd players will distort if it's too close to 0.

I would guess most of my mixes usually end up with average levels between -12 to -6.

If you have a big bombastic scene but limit it to -12, it will seem weak, so yeah, kick it in the pants!
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Um... -0.3 would hurt like hell in a calibrated room. Most professional mixes I've seen peak between -4 and -8 (that's the peak level over 90 minutes, and it never stays anywhere near that on average), but more to the point is that features are not mixed to a "level". The numbers aren't nearly as important as mixing in a calibrated studio.

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=87830

(For music when everyone is trying to be the loudest, then yes a lot of mixes ride around -0.1dbFS, but that should never be the case in a film soundtrack)
 
Tim Joy said:
For playback and your final mix you can go right up to -0.001 if you want to, if you think it will enhance the scene. I usually keep peaks below -0.3 though, just to be safe, because some dvd players will distort if it's too close to 0.

I would guess most of my mixes usually end up with average levels between -12 to -6.

If you have a big bombastic scene but limit it to -12, it will seem weak, so yeah, kick it in the pants!
Click to expand...

That's way too high. While DVD for home release has few real mix level standards, pushing the level to the absolute digital max is risky. And if you are expecting your film to show in a movie theater, you're going to deafen your audience. Theater sound systems are set up for dialog that averages much lower, and explosions that dance around the standard peak level.

Just because it technically sounds clean up to -0.1dB doesn't mean that's safe. That is a peak level for commercial CD releases, which today have dynamic range squeezed out of them.

-12 is the peak, though again not an absolute peak for sudden, sharp, brief sounds that my hit -6dB.
 
is it safe to say keep doing what im doing, keeping it mostly at -12db but each tension scene/build up let my levels go high but not peak? I feel like the loudness of all the voices along with the music build up makes the scenes work
 
Mixing for film is a true art form, and it is much, much more than just level control. It is about EQ to bring excitement to a sound. It's about keeping the ear focused - or distracted. It's about contrasts - both sonically and dynamically.

But it's also about the material that is being mixed. A carefully selected sound effect can create - or release - tension. Even something as supposedly mundane as an ambience can communicate volumes of information to the audience. A great Foley performance will provide information about the character and just fall into place in the mix. A properly executed score will not conflict with the dialog or sound design; and conversely a well executed sound design will not conflict with the score.

Yet all of the above will not save a bad film. The purpose of sound and music is to enhance, not propel, a film.
 
Sorry, I guess I was thinking more about music mixing levels than film. I also assumed that the OP would be mixing for DVD and not a theatrical release, (Sorry, not saying you're film isn't good enough) so you could push the levels higher without the fear of blowing up everyone in the theater, but it's probably best to keep it safe anyway.
 
Broadcast has level standards, I don't think there are any for DVD, though in theory you should probably mix more like a video than a film. Anyway Film is mixed by ear in a calibrated room. If you set up your speakers to a calibrated level then your not going to hit .3 dB unless your deaf, it would really hurt. Film lives naturally around the levels C2V mentioned which is around where broadcast lives. For video as a general rule I would mix it to sound right then compress a bit since it will play in a home environment rather than a nice quiet theatre.
 
Oh and as someone mentioned you would be much better off doing a send to STP and working there than trying to do it in FCP. STP is really FCP editor friendly, ie you shouldn't have much of a learning curve from FCP. That's part of the reason most sound folks don't like it as much as something like ProTools or Nuendo. It's very much a FCP editors sound app.
 
C2V said:
That's way too high. While DVD for home release has few real mix level standards, pushing the level to the absolute digital max is risky. And if you are expecting your film to show in a movie theater, you're going to deafen your audience. Theater sound systems are set up for dialog that averages much lower, and explosions that dance around the standard peak level.

Just because it technically sounds clean up to -0.1dB doesn't mean that's safe. That is a peak level for commercial CD releases, which today have dynamic range squeezed out of them.

-12 is the peak, though again not an absolute peak for sudden, sharp, brief sounds that my hit -6dB.
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Hey C2V!

So how do you finish/master a mix for broadcast or DVD? I have been doing a mix in Cubase, then mastering in Steinberg Wavelab in basically the same fashion as I do for music, only with a lower average level. I have yet to find anything that talks about average level for video. I have been putting my peaks at -1db, and an average volume of -15db. I guess that's still too loud. I can't get a straight answer from my local stations because they don't know what they are doing, and their channels sound terribly distorted.

Anyway, do you master your audio? Do you just do a mix, then let the broadcast compression do the rest?

Thanks
 
You have to be specific about WHAT broadcast or other release format you're mastering for. SD has one standard, HD another, conventional DVD another, Dolby 5.1 yet another. A Google on "dialnorm" will reveal a wealth of totally confusing information <grin>. For broadcast standards, a good reference is PBS's Technical Standards Redbook, available online. PBS is pretty much state of the art in their requirements. Discovery Networks and National Geographic also make their technical standards available online.
 
Gohanto said:
Um... -0.3 would hurt like hell in a calibrated room. Most professional mixes I've seen peak between -4 and -8 (that's the peak level over 90 minutes, and it never stays anywhere near that on average), but more to the point is that features are not mixed to a "level". The numbers aren't nearly as important as mixing in a calibrated studio.

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=87830

(For music when everyone is trying to be the loudest, then yes a lot of mixes ride around -0.1dbFS, but that should never be the case in a film soundtrack)
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That's true, but it also depends on the type of film that you're working on. Walkie Talkie's are not going to be as dynamic as a horror movie. I've been involved with the mixes on a few horror movies and they'll kiss the red when they need to.
 
Standard Def local broadcast TV. Over the air, and on cable.

Can someone give me an average volume level? Peak level? I have tried reading those things and it never talks about what I am asking specifically. Do people master? Is a mix alone used?



Steve House said:
You have to be specific about WHAT broadcast or other release format you're mastering for. SD has one standard, HD another, conventional DVD another, Dolby 5.1 yet another. A Google on "dialnorm" will reveal a wealth of totally confusing information <grin>. For broadcast standards, a good reference is PBS's Technical Standards Redbook, available online. PBS is pretty much state of the art in their requirements. Discovery Networks and National Geographic also make their technical standards available online.
Click to expand...
 
It would be great if someone could show some screen shots of a finished waveform treated for various places, DVD, Broadcast TV, film. I can tell a lot just by looking.
 
Chadfish said:
Hey C2V!

So how do you finish/master a mix for broadcast or DVD? I have been doing a mix in Cubase, then mastering in Steinberg Wavelab in basically the same fashion as I do for music, only with a lower average level. I have yet to find anything that talks about average level for video. I have been putting my peaks at -1db, and an average volume of -15db. I guess that's still too loud. I can't get a straight answer from my local stations because they don't know what they are doing, and their channels sound terribly distorted.

Anyway, do you master your audio? Do you just do a mix, then let the broadcast compression do the rest?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Well, a lot of this has been answered in bits and pieces by other folks, but...

I post my audio in ProTools, bounce the mix out, and then lay the mixed WAV into FCP. DVD is a completely different game from broadcast. "Mastering" for broadcast spots is essentially done within PT as I'll stack a few plug-ins on the master channel (compression, EQ, Waves limiter with Ultramaximizer) that will provide a poor man's mastering setup.

For broadcast, if I'm working with SD DV material, I'll set a brick wall limiter at -12dB and use some compression as well to crunch the dynamic range a bit... especially for commercials. I really don't leave it to the broadcast compression to do much at all. The optimod is there as a failsafe, but it does a terrible job if it has to do everything. If your local station deals with DV or DVCAM, just limit at -12 and keep your dynamic range between that an -22.

For DVD, I mix about the same except that I leave just a little more dynamic range. And I'll set my limiter to -6dB... personal preference, since there's no real steadfast rule about levels and DVD.

Back to broadcast, you really have to do the best you can and trust that they're going to be nice to your material. Unforunately, I know local-market stations that really can't calibrate levels to save their lives.
 
Chadfish said:
Standard Def local broadcast TV. Over the air, and on cable.

Can someone give me an average volume level? Peak level? I have tried reading those things and it never talks about what I am asking specifically. Do people master? Is a mix alone used?
Click to expand...

Quoting from the PBS Redbook Technical Standards, which would meet virtually any North American SD broadcast station or cables system's standards, you will have alignment level tone at -20dBFS, average program loudness levels (using VU meter ballistics) generally between -28dBFS and -20dBFS, loudness not going over -17dBFS during any portion of the program, average dialog levels -24dBFS +/- 2dB measured using LAeq method, music and effects can go higher but peaks may not exceed -10dBFS (peak reading meters) under any circumstances. HD programming is similar but allowable peaks go up to -3dBFS.
 
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Sounds good guys.

I do a real master process in WaveLab using Waves Ultramaximizer and some EQ. Then I take that final 16bit file and put it into the FCP project. So I'll try limiting my peaks at -12. I have been limiting my peaks at -1, and the guy on one station turns it down to where he wants it - bubbling around -12, but it's allowed to go over. The other stations have no instructions for me. It just seems so odd to have to go so low. It seems like analog settings. If everything could just be set to the same standard! Oh well. C'est La Vie.
 
Chadfish said:
Sounds good guys.

I do a real master process in WaveLab using Waves Ultramaximizer and some EQ. Then I take that final 16bit file and put it into the FCP project. So I'll try limiting my peaks at -12. I have been limiting my peaks at -1, and the guy on one station turns it down to where he wants it - bubbling around -12, but it's allowed to go over. The other stations have no instructions for me. It just seems so odd to have to go so low. It seems like analog settings. If everything could just be set to the same standard! Oh well. C'est La Vie.
Click to expand...
I'm not all that familiar with the details of the DTV broadcast signal chain, but AFAIK as soon as it's played at the station and enters the broadcast chain, it becomes analog.
 
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