Audio kit for documentary

S

slimjim

Member
Hi there, I am looking to buy a kit for a low budget documentary that my friend and I are creating. Neither of us are sound men, and because the project is going to go on for the next couple of years it seems worthy of buying the kit instead of hiring.

Pretty much only going to need the kit for interviews, mixture of indoor/outdoor. Ideally a Tie mic kit. and some way to record it (ideally by placing the recording device in the interviwees pocket, instead of wireless)

Shooting on a hacked GH1 so definitely going to need some type of recording device. Budget is variable, If i could spend £200 and have a half decent kit then I'd be pretty happy. Would appreciate any input you guys may have,

Thanks a lot

James
 
You aren't going to be able to purchase any workable sound kit for £200. That's about $320 USD, and that's just enough to buy a decent "tie mic" (aka lavaliere mic, or "lav"). Or, that $320 could purchase a basic, but not-so-wonderful digital recorder. You won't get both.

As for your proposed setup, if you put the recorder in the interviewee's pocket, how on earth are you going to monitor while you record? In other words, how will you know if the audio is good before it's too late to fix it?

A fishpole (boom) kit is more flexible, if you are only going to buy one mic, than a lav. And you really need to have both a way to monitor the audio as it records, and a good set of headphones (that's another $100 or so... £62-ish).

You are in a position that springs up daily on this forum: you need to record audio, don't have the budget to hire, and don't really have the budget to purchase anything worth purchasing. Consider renting. Also, consider reading up on/studying audio techniques for field production. Good audio ain't cheap, but cheap audio is going to cost you dearly.

Peace,
Alex
 
First off, dropping a recorder in the subject's pocket should not be be your 'ideal' solution. There's no way to monitor or adjust the recorder. A wired lav into a DR-100 or a Zoom H4n would be an okay starting point. Add cables and headphones, and perhaps a second lav to mic the interviewer, even if you don't plan to use that audio later. Someone MUST be monitoring the recording at all times and making adjustments as necessary.

£200 works to what, $325 these days? Sorry, but that's not going to get you there. You're looking at about $200 each for a basic lav like an EMW. Another $300 for the recorder, $100 for decent phones, $50-100 on cables and whatever random supplies you may need.

So you're looking at $700-900 for the above, say £425-550? I'm guessing at the currency conversion.

The way I'd generally look at it is the sound budget should start around what you paid for your camera. In a doc, sound is probably more than 'half the picture' as is so often stated.
 
C2V said:
You are in a position that springs up daily on this forum: you need to record audio, don't have the budget to hire, and don't really have the budget to purchase anything worth purchasing. Consider renting. Also, consider reading up on/studying audio techniques for field production. Good audio ain't cheap, but cheap audio is going to cost you dearly.

Peace,
Alex
Click to expand...

I agree. I find this questions comes up with DSLR shooters primarily (AND THAT'S OK!).

I like to tell DSLR shooters that the recorder might cost as much as their camera body and mics will be the same ranges as still lenses (from $300 for a lav to $2K for a 641.) But, they'll also need a warm body (aka person) to monitor the sound as C2V mentioned.

At the very least, take the amount you spent on your camera and primary lens (if it's a zoom lens) and half-it for even the most basic audio setup.

With documentaries especially, production sound is incredibly important. When doing interviews, the sound often becomes far more instrumental to moving the story forward than the image does.

A basic sound kit here in Montreal with boom, mixer, shotgun 416, KM81 or MKH60, headphones runs about $40/day and 3 days make a week rental (some places 4). But that means even renting you'd be at your budget in 2-3 weeks or a month.

But all is not lost - there are possibilities, they might require you to re-adjust your budget by as much as 3x though. However 600 pounds might be enough for you to be comfortable with the result for two years as long as you're only trying to do interviews.

Part of the issue is actually the DSLR. If you had a camera that could do single system sound, you wouldn't need a recorder - and maybe not even a mixer if only had the 1 lav - since you could feed the mic directly into the camera and monitor the audio there. While even that setup is not ideal, it is doable.

So in this case, the documentary with a DSLR, adds the requirement of a recorder - just something to keep in mind. Right tools for the job kind of thing...
 
Here is some gear to hit your price mark.
Is it perfect? hardly, but if we need to hit that mark so be it.


Zoom H1 recorder $99
Remote Audio sells a Lav that is wired for those type recorders for $99
Microcat wind cover for the lav $25
Sony 7502 headphones $50

All that stuff is available at trewaudio. I have personally not tried the recorder or that mic but your options are slim for that amount of money
are they not?

**Please note, I don't endorse trying to put an audio kit ( I use this term loosely) for such a small amount of money
but something tells me the OP isn't going to come up with another grand to make his audio equipment better just because
we told him he needs to
so I'm just giving him what he asked for.
 
Rippie said:
Here is some gear to hit your price mark.
Is it perfect? hardly, but if we need to hit that mark so be it.


Zoom H1 recorder $99
Remote Audio sells a Lav that is wired for those type recorders for $99
Microcat wind cover for the lav $25
Sony 7502 headphones $50

All that stuff is available at trewaudio. I have personally not tried the recorder or that mic but your options are slim for that amount of money
are they not?

**Please note, I don't endorse trying to put an audio kit ( I use this term loosely) for such a small amount of money
but something tells me the OP isn't going to come up with another grand to make his audio equipment better just because
we told him he needs to
so I'm just giving him what he asked for.
Click to expand...

That's a great list actually. I didn't even know you could get a decent lav for $99!
 
I second the comments above. You may find that renting is your only option for now.

Before purchasing my Canon 7D, I shot with a DVX100b. My audio kit was x1 Sony ECM 44b lav mic, 20ft XLR cable and a pair of headphones. If I needed a shotgun mic or second lav I'd rent it.

I shot many documentaries with this setup. As long as you're interviewing one person at a time, and don't need the interviewers questions, you don't need a second lav or a mixer. I got by for years without one.

You can purchase a Sony lav for around $150 used on Ebay. Maybe 75 -100 for a good set of used headphones.

Since purchasing a 7D I've been recording to the Zoom H4n. Again, check craigslist or Ebay first. You can often find them for 2/3's the cost.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your documentary.

P.
 
Petros Kolyvas said:
That's a great list actually. I didn't even know you could get a decent lav for $99!
Click to expand...

Well I don't know if its decent or not (having not tried it), but I know all the time when I'm flipping through the tv stations
I see the supplied Lectrosonics lav they put in with their units on the screen. Here's the kicker, I know a few years ago you could buy a pigtailed
version of that lav from some electronics store online for $2 a piece. (I bought like 5 at the time, gave um away when I sold old units)
Same exact lav. I still have 1 or 2 in my basement somewhere never used.

Point being is if that mic is on the air all the time and people get away with it perhaps this guy can get away with his $99 one.
 
I think people realy have to learn that soundequipment has the same price (and even more) then camera equipment (as mentioned before)

Wild guess...for good soundstuff...mice, lavs, transmitters , receivers (diversity), recorder, mixer, boompole, rycote, windjammer, cables: 9500$

So I wouldn't expect quality sound for 200$

And to clearify "quality sound": noise, hiss, touching sounds (when you hold a boompole), quality of preamps, the easyness of the menu's, the possibilities of the recorder/mixer.

You can have a camera for 50$ and you can have one for 5000$..... (It seems to be easier for unexperienced- in-sound-people to compare with image stuff...)
 
Hi thanks a lot for the replies.. I see theirs no option but to have to spend more on the sound kit. I know audio is just as important as the picture and probably more in the case of documentary and I'd hate to invest in crap equipment for the sake of saving a few hundred.. What I think i'll have to do it hire for the first few interviews and then save up and splash out on a good kit..

So ok I'll persuade my friend that we should up the price to £600 ish, I think its definitely will justify itself, I'd hate to get back home after the first interview and realise its unusable/un professional.

Thanks a lot for all your input, Sorry I didn't mean to come across as if Sound doesn't deserve attention, I just am not to aware of pricing of sound equipment. Also I assume Lapel Mic's would be most helpful for interviews due to them going on for long periods of time where it seems a boom operator would not be able to manage it.

Any more input would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

James
 
good boom operators can menage A LOT....

But as I say... GOOD boom operators...not your neighbour friend, or your aunty Suzy or uncle Richard....who knows how to hold a golfstick....
 
slimjim said:
Sorry I didn't mean to come across as if Sound doesn't deserve attention, I just am not to aware of pricing of sound equipment.

Any more input would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

James
Click to expand...

No need to apologise James! At least you asked and thus gave it some needed attention.

I do agree that people are often surprised how costly sound gear can be. Conversely, professional sound equipment lasts significantly longer than a lot of imaging equipment (lenses excluded) where the resolution and formats are currently being improved and thus always something "better" on the horizon.

With sound equipment the steps are much more about steady "evolution" rather than "revolution."

(i'm painting with broad strokes here)
 
Oh yeah; I'm still using mics I bought 20 years ago, plus the fact that sound gear - with the possible exception of the recorder - also holds its value better. A buddy of mine has, and uses, an old broadcast mic from the '40's. How many folks still use a video camera from even ten years ago?

Over the last 15 years or so the cost of most audio gear has gone up while the cost of most video gear has gone down.
 
slimjim said:
Also I assume Lapel Mic's would be most helpful for interviews due to them going on for long periods of time where it seems a boom operator would not be able to manage it.
Click to expand...

Actually, if the interview is seated and locked-down, a good mic on a boom is still going to sound much better. (Of course, the mic has to be the right one for the environment, and must be properly placed.) I do not know a single recordist or boom op, though, that will hold a pole for a seated interview. That is why God gave us C-stands with boom-pole holders. Or, on a budget, mic stands with boom arms.
 
How about mentioning to the OP the trinity of audio kit mics?

Shotgun - for outdoor use on a boom. Possibly on camera for nat sound.
Hypercardioid - For indoor use on a boom. Possibly on camera for nat sound.
Wireless Lav (or wired). Good for "one man band" situations where you have no boom op.

Some shotguns can work indoors, but often the slits on the side cause funky sound when you are in a reflective room.
Hypercardioids sound great anywhere, but are really susceptible to wind, so they are mostly for indoor use.
Lav: The worse sounding option, but it's convenience is awesome, ans when it's on your talent's chest, it can sound better than a boom mic in some noisy environments.

Recorder: Tascam DR100 / Zoom H4N are getting much use at about 300.00 US each. They supply Phantom and have XLR connections for good mics. The Tascam seems to have better preamps ans is more user friendly to operate.

For an all around starter kit for indi Doc making here's my list. It's over your budget, but you sould pick up things as money comes along.

Rode NTG-2 shotgun: 269.00 with a shockmount kit at B&H. Runs on battery and can plug into DSLR. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/481528-REG/Rode_NTG_2_Condenser_Shotgun_Microphone.html
Softie for wind protection 60.00 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/573091-REG/Rode_WS6_WS6_Deluxe_Windshield_for.html

Rode NT3 269.00 Runs on battery and can plug into DSLR.(not a hypercardioid, but close enough) cardioid http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/233750-REG/Rode_NT3.html

Rode Lav 250.00 (XLR adapter 30.00 more) Requires Phantom power. You can buy adapters for recorders, XLR, wireless,

Tascam DR100 300.00 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...100_DR_100_Professional_Portable_Digital.html

Sony 7506 cans. Industry standard, 80.00 sound accurate. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506.html

So that's 1,228 US for an almost complete kit. You need cables. Possibly a sennheiser G3 wireless for 600.00 (but that comes with a lav)

So that's an allmost complete kit.

El Cheapo could be an NTG-2 / Softie / DR100 / Rode Lav (and XLR adapter) = $909.00, which might be doable. Oops Cans 80.00!

El Super Cheapo: Zoom H1 (no xlr which is lame) 99.00, Rode VideoMic (1/8" cable, battery operated) 150.00, Giant Squid Lav 30.00 http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/
Cans 80.00

El Super Cheapo Total $230.00

I'd go for the better stuff of course, but there's my run at it.
 
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