Audio for Video Techniques-- Production Audio or Post-Production

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Gregg Juke

Well-known member
Hi All,

I've only been here a little while (I understand that). I must admit I am a newb at film/video production audio (but not to audio, or even post-production audio for video; just to more serious live production audio for picture). That is why I came here-- to learn more about video, and in this forum, to learn more especially about film/video audio.

At first, I was taken aback by the seeming brusqueness of some of the pros and forum veterans that hang here. A lot of questions seem to get ignored or answered in a very cursory fashion, and often the "DIY" approach is looked down-upon, somewhat (this is after all, "DVXUser," not "Pro Budget Hollywood Film-maker dot com"). It was kind of bothering me, but then I started to pay attention a little...

It seems like 80-90% of the posts/questions-asked here are regarding equipment, and "What should I buy for no money that will be the perfect thing?" Over and over (and over). Nobody bothers to read the stickies, or look at the last one-hundred posts prior to theirs. There are very few questions (and therefore, few opportunities for experienced persons to share insight) into techniques (mike placement, booming techniques, mixing, the difference between mixes for picture and mixes that will only be listened to, post-production/sound design or scoring tricks and techniques, etc., etc., etc.). These are the things I'd love to hear about.

I'd like to learn more from the folks that do this all the time. I don't even have any specific questions right now; I'm too new to even know what I want to know! But everybody here wants to know "What microphone to buy for under $25." That's got to be frustrating to the vets, because it's starting to be to me, and I haven't been here very long at all.

So, does anybody have any questions about techniques, regardless of which mike you're using? Do any of the vets have any tricks to share? Because I'd love to sit back and pick-up a few things to try on the next shoot or post session. Anything that doesn't involve "The perfect shotgun for less than half a quid?"

GJ
 
Gregg Juke said:
...
At first, I was taken aback by the seeming brusqueness of some of the pros and forum veterans that hang here. A lot of questions seem to get ignored or answered in a very cursory fashion, and often the "DIY" approach is looked down-upon, somewhat (this is after all, "DVXUser," not "Pro Budget Hollywood Film-maker dot com"). It was kind of bothering me, but then I started to pay attention a little...
...
Click to expand...

One thing to keep in mind is that the budget is a matter of perspective. To recommend to an aspiring Indy filmmaker or someone with an interest in doing production sound that they spend $5000+ in a sound kit may SEEM like a lot of cash (and of course, it isn't a trivial amount) but it's NOT a "Pro Budget Hollywood Filmmaker" levels of cash by a long shot. The reality is the established freelance Hollywood sound mixer will often show up on location driving a van with $50,000 to $100,000 worth of personally owned sound equipment inside. So when someone on the forum says "Sennheiser G3 is the minimum level wireless to consider" or "you need a proper shotgun for exteriors plus a hypercardioid for interiors" they really and truly ARE recommending the lowest cost kit that in their opinion is ready for entry-level professional work ... if the wireless recommendation was directed towards an established pro, it probably would be for Lectro or Zaxcom or the like at much higher prices.
 
Gregg,
Thanks for paying attention. There is a wide and varied group of users here and people sometimes forget to take into account who they are talking to. There is actually a DIY section on this board that is much more about DIY projects. It takes a lot of skills to DIY much in the way of sound equipment and there are some folks who think it's easy to make "professional" equipment. Somethings are very DIYable and somethings are if you have some good skills, others are virtually impossible.

I have built mixers and mic preamps from scratch, boom poles and shock mounts and a few zeppelins. But I spent years learning electronics and am a decent machinist, can weld and have very good woodworking chops.

Hey but back to your question.

There is a sticky on post. It has a bunch of threads on post techniques and "tricks". When you make it through those you will probably have some questions to ask. I'm not blowing off your question but it's a huge topic and I don't want to just repeat what is already posted.
 
I recieved a phone call this morning from the director of an indie feature I've been working on part-time for nearly a year. This director/producers pays everyone. No, it's not scale, but it's not just gas money either. We shot on Sunday night with a call time of 8pm and required dark night for the shoot. We wrapped sometime around 4am. Over the last year I've earned substantial income from his project. Here's what he called to say (paraphrased for brevity):

My wife (she is the scriptie, along with acting as co-producer) pointed out to me how much we (he on camera, me on boom and mixer) are joined at the hip during a shoot (he prefers me to send him the mixer feed rather than recorder separately). You are on set the entire time we're shooting and not often afforded a break, either for bathroom or other, and when asked to do something other than sound, you jump to it without a groan or frown but willing go to it. Your work ethic and attitude are greatly appreciated.

Now this guy is the person who gave me a break and believed in me when I was just transitioning from live production to film. His film (Sawgrass Jungle) is a very entertaining mix of culture, humor, and drama. He is very easy to work with. Knows what he wants (as much as anyone can giving set variables), and has a sense of humor that you'd have to experience to appreciate.

Now, why am I saying all this? Here's the takeaway:

Set work is sometimes gruelling, cold, hot, uncomfortable, and tedious. It requires stamina and CONSTANT attention. The art of proper booming is measured in millimeters. Not a small feat given the sometimes unpredictable movement of actors. While I take direction from the director, I am there to serve the film. If that means I can grab some background walla quickly, I'll point that out. If certain actions were causing noise during a take, I ask for a quick wild line. If I have a lav making noise, I look for an oportune time to correct it, or ask for 2 minutes. If an outside noise interupts the take, I simply glance at the director, then look toward the source of the noise, and let him decide whether to cut. Good enough is NEVER good enough. Striving for excellence is the name of the game. Otherwise, why do this? There are more comfortable hobbies and easier ways to make a buck. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. How do you get good at production sound? One take at a time, trying to improve with each one, utilizing every bit of performance out of the gear you have, rather than blame poor sound on the gear you don't have.

Virtually no one appreciates the hard work that goes into acquiring quality dialog on set. This is not a craft which draws recognition for good work and at the same time is obvious in it's absence.
 
Wow. Thanks guys for your candid responses (PLEASE keep them coming), and gpforet, that was a great story that also gives me not only some food for thought, but ellicits some questions too...

* When you were transitioning to film, where were you transitioning from? (When you say, "live production," do you mean live TV/video, or theater production, or rock/pop/live concert stuff?)

* Mike placement is extremely important in studio production, but we usually have the leisure of spending time getting sounds and moving microphones around until things sound right. How long did it take you to get your on-the-spot "millimeters/dialogue chops" together?

* When actors are improvising and taking different approaches from take to take and scene to scene, how do you anticipate (or can you) the changes that they might make in volume, wild arm swings; whatever? Do you start with a "minimum safe distance" from the microphone, or do you watch the actors to get to know their M.O.'s?

* Do you _ever_ get any pre-production time? (I know that it is recommended that boom-ops know the script, but have you ever had the luxury of a rehearsal, for instance?)

* I have done some low-budget/DIY directing, and I have some experience as a live theater producer/director/musical director. I know that working relationships like the one you described are important, but I also know that working with a large cast and crew, the director is often inundated with ideas/requests/"what abouts," and sometimes a director needs to separate him/herself a little just to be able to direct. 1) What etiquette have you learned about communicating with directors or DP's, and is that a "role" thing, or a "based on the people involved" thing? How do you know when to suggest, and when not to suggest? 2) How big are the cast and crews you're dealing with (in the example you gave)? In the theater, we might be talking about 100 people, but I could see how things could be very different with a small cast and a director/camera op, sound person, and smaller crew... 3) Do you ever run a separate line and do a back-up recording, even though you are feeding the camera audio? 4) Are you working with a mixer, or are you both mixer and boom-op? 5) Are you running a single shotgun (or hyper), or are you using planted set mikes and lavs as well?

And here's a wild-card tech question I've been meaning to ask, for anyone that wants to answer: I have a Sennheiser 441, which I'm sure most everybody knows is a premier super-cardioid dynamic mike, with some great features and a very "condenser-like" response. Even though it is a dynamic, would it be worth trying on a boom, with the right mike pre-amp and in the right situation? (close-miking or being able to scoop, for instance)

Thanks,

GJ
 
I don't think you would have much luck booming it. It's a bit heavy and dynamics have a very short range so you would have to be in the shot in most cases to get close enough. They work for some Foley work though and VO and car micing, though I would use something more "expendable" usually.
 
I transitioned from live theatre, before which I did live FOH and monitor mixing for groups ranging from country to metal. I spent about 20 years in the live music arena, and when I turned 40 the volume, heavy bottom end, and late nights were getting intolerable. That's when I transitioned to theatre, primarily musical theatre but some drama as well. From there I migrated to film sound. That was about 3 years ago.

* Mike placement is extremely important in studio production, but we usually have the leisure of spending time getting sounds and moving microphones around until things sound right. How long did it take you to get your on-the-spot "millimeters/dialogue chops" together?

I am still miles from where I'd like to be in regarding to booming techniques. If I had to add it up in hours I'd say I probably have somewhere around 1500 hours of booming experience.

* When actors are improvising and taking different approaches from take to take and scene to scene, how do you anticipate (or can you) the changes that they might make in volume, wild arm swings; whatever? Do you start with a "minimum safe distance" from the microphone, or do you watch the actors to get to know their M.O.'s?

Very rarely is the shot gotten in 1 take, so I begin when the blocking starts by watching, looking for appropriate places to stand while looking at the camera angles. Once we are close to being ready for a take, I ask the camera man to spot me as I hit my key marks with the boom, asking time and time again as I get lower and lower with the boom "am I in, am I in...." until he says "you're in" then I back out slowly until he/she say's "good". I make a mental note and do this with each key position. I make it a practice to put lavs on the talent as well just in case there is no way to hit a particular mark and still get good coverage.

* Do you _ever_ get any pre-production time? (I know that it is recommended that boom-ops know the script, but have you ever had the luxury of a rehearsal, for instance?)

Very rarely will I have the opportunity to attend rehearsals as most of the projects I'm on do not have the budget to support my rate during rehearsals and typically these rehearsals are not held in the location where we'll be shooting so in all likelihood, blocking will have to be changed. I do get an advance copy of the script and make note of where there may be dynamic changes in dialog volume just as a heads up when I'm setting transmitter sensitivity settings and input gain. When micing the talent, I usually ask them to hit me with the loudest they will get for that particular scene and set sensitivity to give me about 15db of headroom from that (they will often get louder when the camera is rolling). If there is no loud peaks in the script and it is a very sullen or quiet exchange, I give myself about 12 db of headroom.

Regarding the relationship with the director: Mostly I work on low budget films. The largest feature I worked had a budget of only $600k. I present myself as a professional and act accordingly. I will ask the director how he/she would like to handle things such as issues which may negatively impact the quality of the recorded dialog. I let them know that I will need approximately 5 minutes to mic each actor after they have been to make-up and wardrobe, and may have to adjust lavs during the shoot to address clothing rustle. I have never been told to F-off, and on the contrary, am typically given at least some time to ensure that sound goes well. If we're shooting in a noisy environment such as near a freeway or airport, I will mention that this noise will likely present problems but I will do my best and I don't whine about the crappy location choice. On films where I am given a voice early in the location selection process, sound is usually given a back seat to the visuals of the location and I just have to do the best I can. In these types of locations, boom position becomes even more important in that being aware of the rear lobe and where it's pointing in regards to the noise source can make a huge difference which may mean choosing a very different position to boom from than if there was less outside noise.

Take a look at behind the scenes footage of big shoots. There is a lot of gray hair. Some of that is the result of union seniority giving the work to the most senior members, but most of it is because it takes that many years to get to the top of the game. The production sound mixer on the movie Jaws was 75 years old.
 
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Interesting post Gregg.
Just a little insight at the supposed gruffness of some though. Lots of people come across that way on the internet. You can't see the rolling eyes or snickers.

It's rare to run into a professional on a major production that has a lot of attitude, opinion, yes, attitude no. The ones you do, usually don't last long.
I spent more time with armorers than sound people although I know a few of them very well personally. Aside from always being in a rush, they are downright enjoyable to be around.
 
Hey Peter and Steve-- no harm/no foul; one point I was trying to make was that even if there was any _actual_ gruffness, I can totally see how it could be appropriate in many cases!

Noiz-- I was just digging through the audio stickies and found your post on Post-Production Sound (SFX/Foley/WIFO/Dialogue editing)... Fascinating.
Do you have a background in any other type of mixing (music)? If not, was 30-40 tracks extremely daunting when you started to get involved at that level?

As to the relationship between underscore and SFX, and which "takes the lead" in any given scene, who's call is that (besides the director's, ultimately)?
Who would make those decisions, when there is a big enough staff to include a sound supervisor and post sound team, a composer, and a music supervisor?

GJ
 
Gregg Juke said:
Noiz-- I was just digging through the audio stickies and found your post on Post-Production Sound (SFX/Foley/WIFO/Dialogue editing)... Fascinating.
Do you have a background in any other type of mixing (music)? If not, was 30-40 tracks extremely daunting when you started to get involved at that level?

As to the relationship between underscore and SFX, and which "takes the lead" in any given scene, who's call is that (besides the director's, ultimately)?
Who would make those decisions, when there is a big enough staff to include a sound supervisor and post sound team, a composer, and a music supervisor?
GJ
Click to expand...

I did some music, not much and spent 20+ years in theatre a lot of which was doing sound design.

Not particularly. What was intimidating was walking in to a theatre I was going to be the audio eng. for and finding a seven foot 24X16 Neoteck board with an output matrix after running a Tascam 8X4 mixer (that had seemed big!). But I have done very little mixing on large consoles. On the big films I have been on I have usually been an editor or an assistant editor. On smaller films I'm mixing "in the box" with a control surface. Track count is often a lot higher than 30-40. We often get into the high 90's on a 30 sec ad. I had a friend who worked on Judge Dredd and that supposedly had 150 tracks of gunshots and explosions.
Practically though large numbers of tracks are basically one track. You may have 8 or more tracks for hit's in a fight sequence but your using four tracks per hit because they are layered and your using two sets so you can checkerboard them. When people were mixing analog you had to leave enough space between SFX that the mixer could get "in and out" so track count gets a bit inflated. Organizing can be intimidating though.

What the balance is between music and FX comes down to the director. How much say you have depends on how much they are listening to you. Some times the producer has a lot of say and way too often the picture editor has a lot of say. But really it comes down to the director. If he/she trusts the lead mixer they might have a lot of say, actually since they often will do a preliminary mix with out the director they can have a lot of influence. Unless the director knows they want it just so it's up to you, the composer etc to make the case on a shot by shot basis. A lot of FX folks are very anti music and visa versa. I have had more than one composer want to be at a mix (for a low budget film) because they were worried about getting cut out. I think they need to trade off. Other than as an interesting experiment I think it is almost always better to have them trade the lead. They don't really serve the same purpose and can conflict very easily. I always try and have a little meeting with the director on the topic and go section to section and decide what we think ought to be the lead at a given time. I have actually argued for more music than the composer wanted - though not very often.

On a low budget film it's best if you can have the conversation BEFORE you start cutting FX. And tell the director that your not going to do a lot of coverage on the big music moments. You can save a lot of time and frustration.

The music supervisor, as a rule, will have very little say. They might have some influence by placing stuff early on and kind of setting the pace. But are usually not part of the "artistic" team. The editors are also generally not part of the "artistic" team and so have essentially no say. Sound supervisor (depending on who it is) may have some say, Designer possibly, mixers certainly, picture editor, producer.
 
Hey Noiz (or anyone that wants to answer)-- In your experience, what has been the purview of the music superviser? I was under the impression that he or she would have an impact on the overall sonic character (at least as far as music) of the film, and that they would be the person that the composer would report to/liaison with, in addition to getting any outside music clearances. Is it usually just the legal/clearance end they're dealing with, and not the actual score/music edit/sound of the film? (I guess we're talking pretty big budget movies where there would even be someone with that title in the first place)...

GJ
 
I’ll throw in my two cents. I worked at a couple of Hollywood studios decades ago and as I recall the music supervisor was generally the go-between business person negotiating deals, getting rights, and working with composers (and possibly arrangers, orchestrators, and others involved in creating the score) to see that everything that’s considered music is legally allowed to be in the film.

However, the title Music Supervisor can, depending on the size of the project, be as critical as finding the right song(s) and bringing on board new or established bands, singers, songwriters, and composers. OTOH, they can be quite far from anything musical per se and involved mostly as a contract negotiator/lawyer.
 
Peternap said:
Interesting post Gregg.
It's rare to run into a professional on a major production that has a lot of attitude, opinion, yes, attitude no. The ones you do, usually don't last long.
I spent more time with armorers than sound people although I know a few of them very well personally. Aside from always being in a rush, they are downright enjoyable to be around.
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LMAO!!!!!! Well, now you know someone who is both!!!!!!! Just wait until you see my attitude on set. All the finesse of a sound guy, with the knuckle dragging of an armorer. Dangerous combination.
 
You guys are either vets like me (US Army), or you are talking "film-ese" that I am not familiar with...

What exactly does an armorer do on set? Load explosive charges and such? (The armorers I knew at Fort Jackson didn't have much to say, but I wouldn't want to mess with them)

GJ
 
Gregg Juke said:
What exactly does an armorer do on set?
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Provides weapons (everything from small firearms to tanks and beyond) for films, along with consultation and training on how to wield them effectively/convincingly and, very importantly, how to maintain safety on-set.
 
Alex H. said:
Provides weapons (everything from small firearms to tanks and beyond) for films, along with consultation and training on how to wield them effectively/convincingly and, very importantly, how to maintain safety on-set.
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Pretty much nailed it. I also consult on uniforms/appearances and language/dialogue to make sure it's accurate.

You have no idea how many times I am running sound on set and they bring in prop weapons. And I have to keep my mouth shut about improper handling, until I can pull an AD aside and drop hints. (And if it's unsafe, I say "stop!" and grab someone with a smart phone to show them my site for weapons.)
 
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Doc Bernard said:
Pretty much nailed it. I also consult on uniforms/appearances and language/dialogue to make sure it's accurate.

You have no idea how many times I am running sound on set and they bring in prop weapons. And I have to keep my mouth shut about improper handling, until I can pull an AD aside and drop hints. (And if it's unsafe, I say "stop!" and grab someone with a smart phone to show them my site for weapons.)
Click to expand...

Well...after you started talking about knuckle dragging I was gonna ask if your last name was Crowfoot, but Vern ain't learned to keep his mouth shut yet.:grin:
 
OK, so here's another one for you: I was watching the film "Soul Surfer" this evening (familiar with it?), and I got to thinking-- how did they get the dialogue in the ocean/surfing scenes? I mean the two-shots where people are really talking together closely, not something that could be dubbed because you only saw them in profile or the back of their heads or something.

It didn't look like ADR (or like that would even be possible), and I don't think they could've used lavs, and I was trying to figure out what kind of sea-going boom/recording rig the soundman would/could have been using?

Any takers? Anybody ever have to do any ocean dialogue recording before? What about that movie from a few years back where the people were left out at sea on the dive trip? How would you approach a gig like that?

GJ
 
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