Atomos Ninja - Warning - Use only Atomos recommended SSD media and update firmware

David Saraceno said:
That drive is a 5400 rpm 750 GB TravelStar.

The only 5400 rpm TravelStar is 320GBs a/t Atomos.

Given data acquisition rates, I would venture that no 5400 rpm drive should ever be used.
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I always avoid 5400 myself even in my systems as they are very slow, that must be one good 5400 drive! :)
 
Rick Burnett said:
I always avoid 5400 myself even in my systems as they are very slow, that must be one good 5400 drive! :)
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Rick,

That's what I thought until I saw some of them working in a Ninja. Apparently the latest generation of some 5400 drives is as fast as the last generation of 7200 drives. We've been using them without problems. There are advantages if you can use the 5400 drives: they use less power and they stay cooler. Of course, there are differences between 5400 drives.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
Platter density matters as much as drive speed. A 5400 RPM hard drive with twice the data per rotation would theoreticaly be faster then a 7200 RPM hard drive with half the data per rotation.
 
David Shapton said:
Rick,

That's what I thought until I saw some of them working in a Ninja. Apparently the latest generation of some 5400 drives is as fast as the last generation of 7200 drives. We've been using them without problems. There are advantages if you can use the 5400 drives: they use less power and they stay cooler. Of course, there are differences between 5400 drives.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
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So if i were to try one out (I bought four :-Dum(DBG):) would I immediately see issues or would they be something that popped up when I least expect it?
 
Ryan-Guy said:
So if i were to try one out (I bought four) would I immediately see issues or would they be something that popped up when I least expect it?
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I would simply run a long test on them. Fill the drive up. If you do that and there are no problems then you should be OK.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
Rick Burnett said:
I always avoid 5400 myself even in my systems as they are very slow, that must be one good 5400 drive! :)
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you'd be surprised at how fast 5400 rpm drives can be one day. 2.5 inch aren't too great, but 3.5 inch disks on the other hand... got a Samsung F4 5400 rpm 2 tb just for a simple backup, and the disk speed on it was 113 mb/sec read and write, sustained. I was totally floored by it considering it only cost me 70 bux. Drives will improve, in all form and fashion.
 
tom.wong said:
you'd be surprised at how fast 5400 rpm drives can be one day. 2.5 inch aren't too great, but 3.5 inch disks on the other hand... got a Samsung F4 5400 rpm 2 tb just for a simple backup, and the disk speed on it was 113 mb/sec read and write, sustained. I was totally floored by it considering it only cost me 70 bux. Drives will improve, in all form and fashion.
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Very true :) I ALWAYS research the specific drive type before I buy it. Always.
 
One caveat on spinning drives, vibration from loud music at concerts or in clubs can possibly cause dropped frames. This was a reported problem with Red drives unless they were mounted in an ET shock mount.
 
I can only say that IMO the best spinner at the moment is 2.5" WD 7200rpm or even 10.000rpm.
If you cannot afford the SSD go for WD-drives
 
Don't forget that even ProRes HQ is only 27.5 MByte/sec for 10-bit 4:2:2 visually-lossless recording. That's well within the capability of some 5400 drives.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
How about this Atomos Company. On your website, you show us what your device looks like. You explain what it can do. But you have NO samples of FOOTAGE. Take you're product and HIRE somebody to actually use this thing.
 
It's ProRes. If you've ever seen ProRes anywhere, that's what it looks like. We will record whatever is output by the camera. ProRes is visually lossless, so you won't see any difference from this. If you want to guage the quality of output from your camera, plug it into a monitor - although you should be aware that many TVs/Monitors don't really do justice to the quality of the image. For the same reason, if we were to put reduced-quality footage footage our our website for streaming, that would not be representative of the quality of our encoding. It would be like putting a clear plastic bag over an expensive lens while you're filming.

Dave Shapton
Atomos.
 
I dont think dustylense is asking for reduced-quality footage. Other companies like Convergent make samples of all capture rates and sizes, in both MXF and Quicktime formats, available for downloading by interested parties. No streaming available or desired, just access to the raw clips. Atomos really needs to do the same. You might feel that your explanation about ProRes is adequate, but for cautious purchasers, having that ability to evaluate for themselves the output from this device will go a long way for you in terms of good will from your prospective customers.

And just think, since you only supply one format, that is only half the amount of sample files to make available.
 
David Shapton said:
It's ProRes. If you've ever seen ProRes anywhere, that's what it looks like. We will record whatever is output by the camera. ProRes is visually lossless, so you won't see any difference from this. If you want to guage the quality of output from your camera, plug it into a monitor - although you should be aware that many TVs/Monitors don't really do justice to the quality of the image. For the same reason, if we were to put reduced-quality footage footage our our website for streaming, that would not be representative of the quality of our encoding. It would be like putting a clear plastic bag over an expensive lens while you're filming.

Dave Shapton
Atomos.
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I can put rocket fuel in a Ford Pinto, but that doesn't mean I'll be getting to the moon. When I buy a camera, I look for sample footage to study to see if in fact I'm satisfied with the possibility of purchasing that product. You guys don't have that. You just show it's flashy menu and how to load a HD in it. Come on, get a shooter to get some cameras and go out and shoot footage that you post to your website that potential buyer can download and play with. Guess what, a camera is a digital recorder and I can;t think of a single camera where you can't download a file to see what that recording looks like. I'm interested in your porducts, but I haven't seen ANYTHING that makes me bite the bullet in order to purchase. I don't want to be a tester. I want to know what I'm buying.
And I'm not asking for a compressed file to show as sample. I'm saying you need to put up a sample, then link it to the full size original that can be downloaded so that we can put in our editor to gauge the product and the footage. Real world footage. Maybe even clips of the ninja and the cameras internal codec for comparison. I'm asking for a taste test of your dish.
 
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I think the idea of comparison between Long-GOP and ProRes is a good idea, and we can work on this.

I understand your Ford Pinto/Moon analogy, but it's not quite like that, because if the "getting to the moon" bit is supposed to represent ProRes, then you're guaranteed that with the Ninja, because Apple, through a long and (necessarily) rigorous testin process, they have accredited us with the right to say that we produce genuine ProRes. So, as long as you've charged the battery and put a storage disk in, then you'll get 100% ProRes from the Ninja. I guess that's the point I'm making: it's visually lossless, so, if you connect your camera via your TV via HDMI and look at the picture, that's what Ninja ProRes looks like. (But not in playback mode, of course, because you'd then be looking at the compressed footage from the camera).

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
David Shapton said:
because Apple, through a long and (necessarily) rigorous testin process, they have accredited us with the right to say that we produce genuine ProRes.
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I'm a cautious buyer too, but that right there is why I haven't been too concerned about quality of the Ninja/Samurai in terms of what it does with the 0s and 1s it is being fed from the camera. Apple is extremely protective of their branding and are not liberal with who they accredit. If it is officially accredited to use Apple's Pro Res, then I can trust that it has been through a more rigorous testing process than I could possibly give it on my own.
 
My inclination would be to use a spinning hard drive for tripod mounted recording and if I needed to do hand held an SSD. But I'd do some testing. Ikegami has been using spinning HDs for years on their camcorders although with beefy shockmounting. Let's say you had a client who wanted to edit on an AVID. Is it difficult to trans-code Pro Res to AVID codec?
 
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