Hi all - Hoping this is right place to post. I'm curious what people's thoughts are on charging for equipment. Right now I bake it all into my day rate, and only charge for extra gear when specialist hire is required. One reason for this is I never know entirely what gear will be needed until I'm on the shoot, as various curveballs pop up and I have the luxury of being able to over-pack slightly for most of my shoots. But as basic kit we're talking audio / lighting / camera & lenses / monitor / tripos and slider filming pretty basic brand videos that involve a 1 or 2 camera interview and some b-roll. It's all pretty standard fare that to me just seems part of being a videographer, with the wear and tear being part of the service I provide. But what do you kind folks do?
At what point should gear charges be extra?
- Thread starter dilby
- Start date
First decide if this is your passion, or if this is for profit.
If it is for passion, and you hope to someday make it against the odds, then you really can’t ever go wrong. just bring what makes your life easier, and charge clients what they can bare at a package rate. There is no such thing as doing too much, as you are aiming for something higher.
If you are doing this as a business, then charge for everything. Your time, you accessories, everything. if you need to, throw in something at a discounted rate, and the client will appreciate that.
The pros and cons of each, is that when you are starting out, if you charge for everything you might not have enough reputation to keep the clients, and might price yourself out. But that is ok, just find better paying clients, as long as you can deliver a good product. It may take a decade before you start to feel like you are doing anything creative, but if you are consistent, you will get bigger gigs with more production value and eventually feel good about it.
For passion, it is a bit like gambling on yourself, you are betting you have what it takes. you might win big, and you might not. If it is passion you’ll be ok either way. But doing passion work doesn’t mean take what you can get and be under paid,m. If you can, do anything and everything for as much as possible for as short a time as possible, and then focus in on what you want to do and the people you like and admire. That might mean your friend group locally, and it might mean knocking down doors in a big city. It is difficult to charge moeny from your friends, or to expect big pay from people in the cities if you are begging them for a chance. That said, you can also get to making things you want, and that will get you closer to what you want sooner. But you can’t be half ass about that unless you want to wake up in your car one morning.
So charge for everything, even the Noga Cine Arm and spare NPF battery, and a C47’s. Everything. You don’t go to a restaurant and expect to take the dishes home with you after the meal? if you own it, it is because clients need it. $1, $2, $5 whatever it is, it goes into the budget. But chances are you will have to give package deals and so on, but at least if you do, the client knows they are getting a deal. Because a lot of clients just think there is a going rate, and they don’t consider that an FX3 isn’t a $3K camera, it is a $4K camera with a $20K package behind it, and hundreds of hours of experience. It’s your car and home and food for people you care about.
If it is for passion, and you hope to someday make it against the odds, then you really can’t ever go wrong. just bring what makes your life easier, and charge clients what they can bare at a package rate. There is no such thing as doing too much, as you are aiming for something higher.
If you are doing this as a business, then charge for everything. Your time, you accessories, everything. if you need to, throw in something at a discounted rate, and the client will appreciate that.
The pros and cons of each, is that when you are starting out, if you charge for everything you might not have enough reputation to keep the clients, and might price yourself out. But that is ok, just find better paying clients, as long as you can deliver a good product. It may take a decade before you start to feel like you are doing anything creative, but if you are consistent, you will get bigger gigs with more production value and eventually feel good about it.
For passion, it is a bit like gambling on yourself, you are betting you have what it takes. you might win big, and you might not. If it is passion you’ll be ok either way. But doing passion work doesn’t mean take what you can get and be under paid,m. If you can, do anything and everything for as much as possible for as short a time as possible, and then focus in on what you want to do and the people you like and admire. That might mean your friend group locally, and it might mean knocking down doors in a big city. It is difficult to charge moeny from your friends, or to expect big pay from people in the cities if you are begging them for a chance. That said, you can also get to making things you want, and that will get you closer to what you want sooner. But you can’t be half ass about that unless you want to wake up in your car one morning.
So charge for everything, even the Noga Cine Arm and spare NPF battery, and a C47’s. Everything. You don’t go to a restaurant and expect to take the dishes home with you after the meal? if you own it, it is because clients need it. $1, $2, $5 whatever it is, it goes into the budget. But chances are you will have to give package deals and so on, but at least if you do, the client knows they are getting a deal. Because a lot of clients just think there is a going rate, and they don’t consider that an FX3 isn’t a $3K camera, it is a $4K camera with a $20K package behind it, and hundreds of hours of experience. It’s your car and home and food for people you care about.
Last edited:
Mitch Gross
Veteran
You should talk to your accountant about the differences between wage earnings and kit rental fee.
Edit: what Jim Feeley said. Probably more closely, definitely more closely reflects what Mitch meant.
Original post
Basically what this means is, charge for you labor and charge for your rental kit fee separately.
A lot of self employed people are able to buy in cheap, and get used to package deals, sometimes it helps you make more, because you don’t have to specify the exact cheap gear being used, but it eventually gets messy and as you invariably upgrade, you start losing money, and have no real way to quantify things. And all your clients are accustomed to this package deal thing, and your value as a person is tied up into what gear you own. Personally, i’d rather make $1500 a day in labor and bring a kit for free than to bring a $1500 kit and work for free. psychologically anyway. That way, whether it is an FX6 or Mini LF, my day rate is the same. I don’t lose money because the production has a better gear rate with some sharegrid desperado.
But itemize and charge for everything, so that as you upgrade the increase in gear/package costs are also transparent to your clients. Though, raise your day rate first. All cameras and gear are good enough, it comes down to the consistency and reliability with which you can get things done.
Last edited:
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
First of all, ignore the comments and advice from folks who don't even own a camera. They have no clue how to run a business and prefer to spend all their time posting on every thread whether they have any first-hand knowledge or not. You might as well stop people on the street and ask for advice beause it would be just as useful.
Second, you have to be careful about nickle and diming clients on every little thing. It makes you look cheap and petty. You want to be viewed as a "team player" no matter how you really feel about the shoot or the client. A successful freelancer (or small production company) business is built on repeat business and word of mouth referrals. Do you want to be known as the dick who charges extra when he has to use a certain light or change lenses?
I've pretty much stopped doing the kind of freelancing anymore that you speak of, but I can tell you how I handled your situation for decades. I posted my day-rate and terms on my website (rate card before that) for anyone to see. In black and white where anyone could see it, so that I don't waste time with people who can't afford me. My published rate included my B.E.L. (Basic Equipment List) that went out with me on every shoot. It included a description of lighting, grip gear, monitors, lenses, camera, etc. as well as the cost of expendables (tape stock). When I had multiple cameras, clients could pick and choose which camera they wanted (or I would determine that for them). The camera didn't matter because my rate is the same for a GoPro as it is for a Z750. All of that gear was included in the day-rate. I also had a second list of gear that was available ala carte, such as a jib, dolly, teleprompter, additional cameras, etc. The rates for those items were also clearly listed, so if a client wanted me to bring one of them, they knew the cost in advance. Very clear and straightforward for everyone involved.
However, as you have said, we can often overpack and bring some of those extra items along "just in case". I had no qualms about pulling out some of the ala carte items when it suited me without charing extra for it. For example, if I saw an opportunity for a cool jib shot I might pull it out and bang of the shot at no extra charge . . . because I wanted to. My creative choice, and I don't care about being paid extra. The client liked it, I got a cool shot, and I scored points with the client for not charging extra.
Same thing with my prompter. There were dozens of times I'd whip out my prompter during a shoot so that the day would be shorter. I'm getting paid for 10 hours no matter what, but if I can get this CEO to fumble his way through his speech with fewer retakes I might get home a couple of hours earlier? That is well-worth tossing in the prompter for free.
However, if I use the prompter to speed up that part of the shoot, and I know the the client plans to spend the saved time shooting more b-roll, then no, I'm not going to bring out the prompter for free. But I might offer it for an extra fee. Every situation is a judgment call.
The bottom line is this:
If a new or one-off client requests something that goes beyond my B.E.L. they will likely be charged for it.
If a repeat client that I value requests something that goes beyond my B.E.L. they MIGHT be charged for it -- or I might give it to them out of goodwill if it costs me nothing out of pocket.
If I decide on my own to use gear that is outside my B.E.L., the client will not be charged for it because I did it for other reasons.
I think you already know all this, you just need to hear it from someone else.
Last edited:
Jim Feeley
Veteran
Yes! Briefly, you don't want you "passive income" rental fee getting taxed as "earned income" and therefore subject to FICA, the self-employment tax, and whatever else might apply to you (depending on how your biz is structured).
I googled up and then skimmed this article, which looks close to —but not exactly like— what I remember my accountant telling me (again and again and again).
The Essential Guide to Kit Fees
IMO, that article isn't enough to move on, but it can inform your discussion with an accountant...
Well said! Updating my post
If the OP doesn’t have an accountant, should at least consult with one to get running. Turbotax self employed can walk you through it, but it isn’t really tailor made for video freelancers either.
Anyways, Jim Feeley and Mitch are spot on here and this can save you money if you aren’t already doing this.
Last edited:
@dilby
i am pretty sure Doug is referring to me here. I mentioned i didn’t own a camera in one of the threads.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
BTW, I would like to point out that this thread is titled "At what point should gear charges be extra?"
That subject has absolutely nothing to do with filing taxes or categorizing income as labor vs. gear rental.
That subject has absolutely nothing to do with filing taxes or categorizing income as labor vs. gear rental.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
The information in this article is completely useless and not worth re-posting. Did you read the writer's bio? "Loring is a Los Angeles-based writer, director, and creative producer. His work has been commissioned by a diverse range of clients- . . . and has been screened around the world. Through a background that blends project development with physical production across multiple formats, Loring has developed a uniquely eclectic skillset as a visual storyteller."
This who you're going to take financial advice from? A visual storyteller who knows nothing about the life of a freelance camera person?
For a typical non-employee freelancer, income derived from labor, or gear rental, or whatever, is all treated the same for the purposes of IRS taxation. When you fill out your schedule C there is only one line for income: "Gross Receipts or Sales". You don't report labor and gear rental separately. It is just income. Othewise you'd ahve people charging $1 for their time and $1499 for the gear, or vice versa. All of the income reported as "Gross Receipts or Sales" is treated exactly the same up until you reach the self-employment tax limitations for FICA, etc. The only way to get around that is to incorporate and then pay yourself a salary. It won't reduce your income tax but it might reduce your FICA taxes. However, that business structure introduces a whole new set of headaches and paperwork that might make it not worth it.
But hey, don't take my word for it. Check with your accountant, laywer, and tax adviser. You don't wanna take advice from some dumb freelancer.
Jim Feeley
Veteran
I disagree. dilby, the OP writes, "Right now I bake it all into my day rate, and only charge for extra gear when specialist hire is required..."
And the point is, gear should be "extra" as soon as it's requested. It's not part of labor. But to get to your point about what is extra beyond your standard kit, I'd look at it as, "what is beyond your standard kit?"
My standard audio kit is boom mic, two wireless systems, and mixer/recorder. Plus cables, batteries, boom pole, bag, and all that (just like a good rental house). AND ALSO BACKUPS incase something stops working (just like a good rental house). But if a client wants extra talent wireless, a camera hop, more mics, or whatever, that costs extra. That's fairly standard for my small corp/doc jobs. And it's something discussed ahead of time. Camera kits, vary more, ime. But the rate is all established ahead of time.
During a job, some extra gaff tape is free. An extra stand if something unexpected comes up I have one, I'll loan and not worry about on many jobs, for sure not a longer job or when working with a regular client (unless the loan goes on for a few days). Or if it's a friend's passion project vs. a corp piece for a bigger entity. It all depends.
But when we're acting and the rental house, we need to charge for stuff just as an established house would. And again, we need to be ready to keep things rolling if our gear breaks down. And you know we need to factor in the lifespan of our equipment, amortization, and other stuff that fits into filing taxes.
So dilby, I suggest you separate your labor fee from your rental fee, and perhaps establish one (or a few) base kit fees (camera package for when you're mainly the operator, something bigger when you're OMB'ing lights, audio, and camera). And for curveballs, are they things that should have been caught during prepro or are they random oddities? You want to be a team player, but you also have a business to run...
Mainly, you're asking a good question. It really depends on so many things. But read that article I linked to and talk to you accountant about the tax implications.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
^^ Exactly this. Was going to say the same thing but Doug
beat me too it. I’ve been doing freelance production work
for quite a few years and Doug is 100% right on here.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Now you're changing the subject. Acting as a rental house is a completely different thing. We're talking about freelancers billing extra for extra gear.
Again, that has nothing to do with the decision to bill or not to bill a client. EVERYTHING you own is subject to depreciation, amortization, wear and tear, etc. Extra gear that you may or may not decide to bill for is not in a different class.
The OP's question is simply a client-relations decision that ought to have nothing whatsover to do with accounting or taxes.
That is one way of doing it, but I never have and never will. As a freelance shooter you can't hire my kit without me, and I won't work for you without my kit, so the two are intertwined and therefore it makes sense to just roll it all into one fee. Itemizing is unnecessary.
Car manufacturers list the basic features on the sticker with a bottom-line price. The sticker only shows itemized costs of the extra options that have been added. Where is the price for labor anywhere on the sticker? Freelancing should be done exactly the same way: "You get my services and the following gear for $X. If you want other stuff, then here is the price of the other stuff. Let me know if you want me to bring any of it."
Plumbers don't hand you two bills, one for their labor and another for the wrenches they used.
Mechanics don't itemize the cost of their tools. Expendables and parts? Yes. Some exotic specialty machine? Maybe. But there is no mention about the ordinary wrenches, screwdrivers, jacks, and hammers they use.
Would a house painter charge you for his labor on one line and then ordinary tools of the trade like ladders and paint brushes on another line?
Furthermore, when you start itemizing costs you invite comparison shopping. What if they want to hire you, but supply the gear themselves because you charged more than the local rental house? Even though you know your gear is better and more functional. Stupid mistake.
Just offer customers a turnkey solution for gear and labor. Period. Why complicate it if you cannot get labor without gear or vice versa?
Last edited:
Peter C.
Veteran
My clients want simple price to determine if it fits their budget. In the invoice I'll break down my time and anything significant like two manned cameras, mainly for my benefit so next time I can look back at how I charged them. It would be ridiculous to nickle and dime them and charge for every piece of equipment. Much like if you hire a plumber to replace a water heater he's not going to charge extra for each tool he uses.
Last edited:
I’m pretty sure that is what a business is supposed to do.
Peter C.
Veteran
When you get your car serviced does the mechanic charge you for the tools he uses?
I know what you mean, so hopefully you can understand what I wrote/write
My comment was just to highlight how easy it is to spin what someone else says, and not read or understand them in context. Most of what is said above is all good information, yet there are some surprisingly passionate disagreements.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Well, for many services including automotive, the bill is separated into parts and labor.
I did the kind of work-for-hire being described here for many years before moving into the type of work that very much delineates equipment and day rates.So my memory is fuzzier on the other scenario but I do need to ask for those that work in it: do you have provision for the length of day and what happens if it goes into overtime? How is that calculated if you have an all-in rate with equipment? Surely you are not working on flat deals regardless of hours worked?
I did the kind of work-for-hire being described here for many years before moving into the type of work that very much delineates equipment and day rates.So my memory is fuzzier on the other scenario but I do need to ask for those that work in it: do you have provision for the length of day and what happens if it goes into overtime? How is that calculated if you have an all-in rate with equipment? Surely you are not working on flat deals regardless of hours worked?
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Well, billing for parts is more like billing for expendables. You don't get a separate bill for ordinary tools (wrench, screw driver, etc.)
For most of my freelancing career, my rate was based on a 10 hour day. Normally that included myself, an audio person, and all "ordinary" gear. If a day went into OT, I just divided the day rate by 10 hours, and kept the clock running at that rate until the day ended. For example, if the day-rate was $2000, then OT would be $200 per hour. The audio person got paid from me on the same basis.
If a day ran short, no discount was given.
If someone wanted a half-day rate (and I felt like taking half-day booking) the rate was 2/3 of the day-rate. The best days were when I could book two separate half-days the same day for different clients. My record was three billable half-days in one day and I still got home before dark.
However, with all that said, working by the hour for a day-rate is no way to get rich in this business. The real money comes when you can hang out a shingle and function as a production company, which is hired by a client to produce and deliver a finished product for an agreed upon price. That is where the real money and creative freedom lives.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
OK so--you were able to base your hourly OT on a rate that was all-in with equipment? That's interesting.It's essentially production services at this point as you indicated it included audio person. Very different setup than on a, let's say, non-broadcast industry model, where OT is very laid out after given number of hours (traditionally straight time for 8, 1.5x for next 4, then 2x, but there is a LOT of variation on this now even amongst different job categories within a department).
I was "spoiled" from the early days by the Steadicam rental, which is traditionally its own rental separate from day rate, except in the situation of all-in production services as Doug described. A good 35-40% of my annual income came from the Steadicam rental, and when I moved up to DP I didn't want to give that up (I knew what few DP's do, that Steadicam operators often make as much hourly or more than the DP they are working for). I re-invested the capital from the sale of the Steadicam into lenses, and continued to acquire gear until I was providing generally 1/3 to a 1/2 of the rental package on any given show, which ultimately translated into 50% of my annual income. The formula is that I work with a rental house to assemble the package, they bid on the full package, then once the producers negotiate the discounts it is applied equally to their gear and mine to match the agreed total (and I either bill through the rental house or direct to production). Unfortunately, in recent years some bad actors in the rental house space have driven the market into the ground and rental rates have plummeted (in the LA market anyway), so the returns are diminishing and I'm starting to divest my gear as it isn't justifying the cost of doing business any more and will get worse in the future.
I was "spoiled" from the early days by the Steadicam rental, which is traditionally its own rental separate from day rate, except in the situation of all-in production services as Doug described. A good 35-40% of my annual income came from the Steadicam rental, and when I moved up to DP I didn't want to give that up (I knew what few DP's do, that Steadicam operators often make as much hourly or more than the DP they are working for). I re-invested the capital from the sale of the Steadicam into lenses, and continued to acquire gear until I was providing generally 1/3 to a 1/2 of the rental package on any given show, which ultimately translated into 50% of my annual income. The formula is that I work with a rental house to assemble the package, they bid on the full package, then once the producers negotiate the discounts it is applied equally to their gear and mine to match the agreed total (and I either bill through the rental house or direct to production). Unfortunately, in recent years some bad actors in the rental house space have driven the market into the ground and rental rates have plummeted (in the LA market anyway), so the returns are diminishing and I'm starting to divest my gear as it isn't justifying the cost of doing business any more and will get worse in the future.