At What Point Do You Stop Taking Feedback?

T

tommygdawg

Well-known member
Hey all,

I wasn't really sure what forum to post this in, as I just have a general film making topic of conversation I'm curious about, though this can be applied to many things. I chose this subforum because of the amount of feedback directors and actors usually get and give. I recently completed a short screenplay that I was rather happy with. After going back over it, making some edits, redrafting it a bit, I sent it off to a friend who's a fellow writer. He didn't like it, he even cited a few reasons...that I disagree with.

Now, I'm not going to ask you guys and gals to stroke my ego. Rather, I'm simply curious as to where you draw the line between your "artistic vision" and other people's "vision"? I've seen and known A LOT of beliggerent people who can't take feedback or constructive criticism. I try so very hard not to be one of those people, in fact so hard that whenever I get negative feedback I tend to think my project sucks. So my question is, when do you stop listening to the feedback on your screenplay or whatever, and just trust that you're happy with the project and that's all that matters? I'm happy with my screenplay, it's the first I've written in a while that I've felt really good about...then my friend trashes it. Is it bad, or is it just his opinion?

Obviously you all can't weigh in on my script, but I'd love to hear your opinions on the subject.

- Tommy
 
One of the most sane-sounding pieces of advice I ever got was that if one person has a certain criticism about your movie/script/whatever, that's one person. if you ask ten people and they all have that same criticism, that's something to listen to. One friend doesn't like your story? So what? I'm one of the only people I know who hates "The Hangover", but you'll never convince me it's not a raging piece of crap. Ask other people. Post it on here for folks to look at.
 
I'd have to agree with Josh...when I was writing my first film, I showed it to four friends whom I trusted very much to be candid with me...they all had the same issues with my script. After working with one of them (who is an author), he helped me straighten out a few things even though at the time I felt like I was "killing the baby."

The other thing is, you have a computer, you can save multiple files, so make a copy of your current draft, and make the suggested changes, and let it sit for awhile. That's what I did, and begrudgingly re-wrote a couple of parts, but in the end, when I read back over the changes after a month, I felt like they indeed did work better than my original. Now, after that, I built upon them and did a few more edits, but I was very thankful that my author buddy saved me from a potential stumbling block.

But yeah, sometimes one person's opinion is just that, an opinion. You still have to weed through to the central question: "Will this make my work even better."
 
Ditto, everybody sees something different.

For example... I asked a couple who had just seen Avatar with me what they thought about the movie.

The guy said... Great, I liked the underlying story about a man becoming who he was really meant to be, stepping up and doing the right thing.

The wife said... Mmmm, why did the monkey people have to be blue? They weren't blue in planet of the apes.
 
Thanks for the opinions, everyone. I guess the biggest issue is I don't have ten people to read the script, and even if I did I probably wouldn't send it to all of them. I feel like there's a certain point where you've gotta start trusting yourself, ya know? I have a hard time finding that point. I agree that different people have different tastes, it's just hard to distinguish between taste and objective fact. For instance, I actually loved Star Wars Episodes 1-3, I even loved Jar Jar Binks, and I have the utmost respect for George Lucas (no, I'm not a little kid), while a lot of people don't. I've been writing and studying for a long, long time. At what point does it become okay to put away critics and start listening to myself?

And David, I agree completely. I didn't really care for Avatar at all...but a lot of people did. However, I would never say it's a bad movie, it made over a billion dollars and tons of people loved. So it can't be bad, right? I simply just didn't like it. Opinion? Fact? Who knows.

And the other issue is, most people don't give you suggestions to fixing something. "I didn't like it." "This dialogue is too sappy." "This would never happen in real life." What do I do with that?
 
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you pretty much have to shed everyone's opinion while writing a script. most people don't even know how to express themselves about how they feel about a script without deflating the person.

Find a few people who have the eye and mentality for such things and even then, you might have to have the conviction to press on. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Totalitarian it!
 
Same as I do with an edit. You listen to opinions and when you disagree, you really think about why you are doing it the way you are. You should justify it, honestly. If you can't, change it.
 
john threat said:
you pretty much have to shed everyone's opinion while writing a script. most people don't even know how to express themselves about how they feel about a script without deflating the person.

Find a few people who have the eye and mentality for such things and even then, you might have to have the conviction to press on. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Totalitarian it!
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gonzo_entertainment said:
Same as I do with an edit. You listen to opinions and when you disagree, you really think about why you are doing it the way you are. You should justify it, honestly. If you can't, change it.
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I've been trying to do this more. I just worry I'm going to be like one of those people who goes on American Idol and has literally no musical ability, and when the judges tell them so, they say something to the effect of "You're wrong, I'm a great singer!" Don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm untalented like that, I don't like to be a defeatist. But, at the same time, I still haven't been able to build an audience for my content. So, it's really hard for me to sit back and say "well, they're just naysayers" when I don't really have the audience to backup my opinion. Ya know? It's hard to explain.

I also totally agree that most people don't know how to give feedback without being mean about it, even when they're unintentionally mean about it. It's a very hard thing to do, especially because most people just tell you what they think is wrong without ideas on how to fix it. That's usually the point when I try to stop listening to them.
 
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People being MEAN about criticism aren't your friends. So make some friends in the industry. Writer friends, director friends, whatever. Just network around here or other places and build up a "harem" of people whose work you respect (why would you want someone making terrible art themselves criticizing yours?), and then ask those folks. They'll give you the kind of feedback you need to grow/make genuine progress, without being flaming dickholes about it. At least I would assume that, likely having gone through or still regularly going through that process themselves.
 
Josh Bass said:
People being MEAN about criticism aren't your friends. So make some friends in the industry. Writer friends, director friends, whatever. Just network around here or other places and build up a "harem" of people whose work you respect (why would you want someone making terrible art themselves criticizing yours?), and then ask those folks. They'll give you the kind of feedback you need to grow/make genuine progress, without being flaming dickholes about it. At least I would assume that, likely having gone through or still regularly going through that process themselves.
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You making a fair point, that's also something I'm trying to work hard on, networking with other film makers. It's one of my biggest weak areas right now. Living in southern central Michigan, I don't know anyone in the area passionate about film like I am. And online, it's just hard to connect with people.
 
I stop taking feedback when the person paying me is happy. Or if I'm selling something done on spec, when someone finally buys it.

Honestly, it comes down to money. If I want to turn the words on a page into a performance on the screen, the people with the money are the people I listen to the most. If I'm self-funding something, and doing it for the sake of - well, art for arts sake let's say - then I can afford to listen less to others and more to myself. But I'll still share things with others and ask for feedback. Some feedback I find useful, some I don't. I tend to discard the stuff I don't agree with, unless several people are telling me similar things.
 
IT'S YOUR ARTISTIC VISION! If you like what you have done, then do not ask for feedback, because you'll get it. If you are on the fence about your project, one way or the other, FEEDBACK, could completely knock you off the damn fence. Just present your project, and listen.
 
vincent6805 said:
IT'S YOUR ARTISTIC VISION! If you like what you have done, then do not ask for feedback, because you'll get it. If you are on the fence about your project, one way or the other, FEEDBACK, could completely knock you off the damn fence. Just present your project, and listen.
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In my experience, the inability to consider and process constructive criticism is a failure of leadership and demonstrates a lack of belief or confidence in one's vision. Sometimes getting knocked off the fence is what allows a person to see their project in a totally new way. It can be the very thing that allows someone to push past a particular problem or issue and actually achieve their artistic vision.
 
David W. Jones said:
The wife said... Mmmm, why did the monkey people have to be blue? They weren't blue in planet of the apes.
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Quote of the Day! ... let me guess...was she a blond? :huh:


All good advice here. Listen, digest...and go with your gut.
Remember, you can make some of the people happy all of the time....and all of the people happy some of the time...but you can't make all the people happy all the time.

This conversation comes up with every fest too!
 
Defending Jar Jar? I had to log in for that.

The Greatest Movie Review of All Time

Anyway, it's mostly taste. I read an article about Hollywood marketers (snakes in suits) yesterday, and they don't give a crap about critics. They target audiences, and if the drooling masses show up and cheer, they are the kings of the world. The quote was along the lines of 'what does a middle aged man have in common with the desires of teenaged girls?' In other words, they tactically disregard the irrelevant opinions. And show the six-pack abs.

That said, I am not a Hollywood marketer. I can't stand a good 90% of the sewage that flows from that city, and I most certainly don't watch it. I prefer foreign and indie fare. My only goal is to find the exceptional cinema that can be produced, but seldom is.

I must have read a thousand short film scripts over the years. I liked a handful. Mostly they don't grab me, and they lack artistry. They aren't compelling enough to warrant finishing. Sometimes I've been wrong. On occasion I disliked a feature script but liked the resulting movie. Not loved, mind you, but liked. There's a wide swath of the bell curve where like is enough, and so you (and the rest of us) might just slide in and make it work.

In my mind, to be loved, it needs to be compelling in the extreme as well as have something thematic worth saying. It needs originality and invention. It needs to rise above the pile and go where I haven't been before. You do all those things, and I'll be powerless to resist.
 
mail4joeg said:
I must have read a thousand short film scripts over the years. I liked a handful. Mostly they don't grab me, and they lack artistry. They aren't compelling enough to warrant finishing. Sometimes I've been wrong. On occasion I disliked a feature script but liked the resulting movie. Not loved, mind you, but liked. There's a wide swath of the bell curve where like is enough, and so you (and the rest of us) might just slide in and make it work.

In my mind, to be loved, it needs to be compelling in the extreme as well as have something thematic worth saying. It needs originality and invention. It needs to rise above the pile and go where I haven't been before. You do all those things, and I'll be powerless to resist.
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Heart of the matter. I'll be very helpful - and not all that helpful:

When to stop taking feedback? You shouldn't have to ask this question. If you're asking this question - things are on the wrong track. Here's how it should be - ideally. Your script grabs people. See the quote from mail4joeg above. If your script is worthwhile, it'll grab people so strongly, they in the words of mail4joeg, they'll be "powerless to resist", and if that happens, guess what the feedback is going to be... and you'll know - no need to ask more questions. And now you answer "oh, but that's an unreasonable standard - that's very rare". And I answer: yes, it is. But that's the only time the script is truly worthwhile. See the quote above again - it is so right, that I'll quote it again:

I must have read a thousand short film scripts over the years. I liked a handful. Mostly they don't grab me, and they lack artistry. They aren't compelling enough to warrant finishing.

Yeah, it's rare. But truly worthwhile things are rare. If it's mediocre, there is no special point at which you should stop taking feedback - it doesn't matter... it's mediocre. So there's your answer - if it didn't grab people, it doesn't matter. Which means, the question shouldn't really exist. It's like asking "when should I stop going to a doctor" - if you're healthy, your yearly checkup will come back "clean bill of health" and there is nothing further to discuss (the script grabbed the reader and didn't let go); I mean if you got a clean bill of health, you wouldn't then turn around and ask "but when should I stop going to the doctor?" The answer would already be there. So if you're asking the question "when should I stop going to the doctor", it means you're sick - and there is no answer to that question... just as there isn't an answer to the question "when should I stop going to the doctor"... you're sick, and who knows when you'll be healthy, and if you don't know, nobody knows... same as with the script - if you keep needing to have feedback because it doesn't grab people so strongly they are unable to resist, then it's mediocre and nobody knows when you should stop taking feedback.

Now, I guess there are some exceptions. Perhaps the script is good, but for one flaw and if you fix that, you'll have a great script. Perhaps you are generally pretty healthy and if you just fix that one thing, you'll be in perfect health. If that's the case, then again, it is clear when to stop taking feedback or going to the doctor - fix that one thing. Clear enough. No need to ask the question, because the answer is right there - fix this.

However, if your problems are hard to diagnose - medical or scriptwise - it's not just one thing, the script is generally very sick, then you ask: "when oh when can I stop taking feedback or going to the doctor" - that's a bad spot. You're sick. Very very sick. If you have to ask that question, your problems are multiple and you may not survive (your script may not survive - and perhaps wasn't meant to live).

Does that sound harsh? Perhaps - but it's true. And I don't exclude myself from that standard. If my work doesn't grab others, I ain't doing good, and I must figure it out. I think you have to have a pretty clear vision. The very first question you have to ask is - does it grab YOU. Because if it does very strongly... you won't care what a random Tom, Dick or Harry have to say about it - which means you've just answered your own question. But if you keep asking, it means you are not certain yourself. And if it doesn't grab YOU so strongly you're helpless to resist, then what are the chances it will grab strangers? Go write material that grabs you so strongly.
 
Exec's pass up on great ideas/ IP's/ scripts every day. There is a letter floating around facebook regarding Fawlty Towers (fromthe BBC) that basically said it was the biggest pile of **** they had ever read. Everything is subjective, go with your gut and listen/act on constructive criticism. I personally think you have to keep going in order to find 'Your own Style' this business is built on rejection.

Jp.x
 
The worst thing about unenlightened (and generally unsolicited) criticism is that these critics feels that they must find fault. Solicited feedback from a respected and knowledgeable colleague can be considered and valued . . . and a critique can be complimentary as well as negative. Most likely, the supportive critique can be most valuable.
 
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Hi-ya Tommy, I'm not too far per se from you. I take it your in Jackson. I'm in Warren. I enjoyed watching your work from your website. You have talent. Your last one "What might have been" was very good. The cinematography was excellent and the acting was superb for a short. As in any art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It would be a boring world if we all liked exactly the same stuff. Wishing you the best.
 
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