at what point are we self destructing?

I guess it also depends on your position in the production chain. I usually come to a client as the vendor, not someone subcontracted by the vendor. So I am talking to the people financing the whole thing. If I am brought in as a sub to shoot or do sound or edit, then that doesn't give me that opportunity. I talk to the contractor, and he or she shrugs and says "I dunno, they just said this was what they wanted".

So I sigh, shake my head and go to work.
 
I know the feeling. it depends on the client. if its a big corporation the feeling has a hard time coming up. if its a private individual which I have sympathy for, I will tell him to stop blowing his money ONCE ( or twice) ! if he doesnt listen, its not my problem anymore.
I used to work for a company that was funded by Paul Allen. They blew several hundred millions but it was real fun while it lasted :D
 
I have to admit, while I hold myself to pretty high ethical standards, this is a quandary I just wouldn't have. You're giving the clients what they want, and if what they want isn't good for their bottom line, it's really not your problem. It's not like you're selling them drugs or forcing them to do anything. They're making business decisions and you're providing a service, a service they want to hire.

Now, you can look at it from other points of view. You can look at it, as was mentioned above, as killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. But that seems like more of a moral onus on you; you're triangulating to maximize your own benefit by doing that.

Or, you can look at it as contributing to society's ills if the company goes under. But that's not on you. It's on them. And if they're contributing to their own demise, then in the long run, society is better off without them, because it was going to happen sooner or later no matter what you did.
 
Refuse to sell that fat guy a big mac... I'm sure he'll see the err in his ways and not just go to burger king next door.


*pssst... hey buddy... no waiting in this line over here*


My point in the first analogy is that true professionals don't think about this stuff... not dissing on anybody... just stating the facts. If you do a good job then don't worry about it... I could make this same point for EVERY industry... I think you're letting "the economy" get under your skin.
 
thats what makes americans different :D

you see: I might also loose a reputation, if my client goes under WHILE and BECAUSE he blew his money hiring ME!
I might gain a reputation as "walks over corpses"

I live in Italy! here men touch their genitals when an empty funeral car passes and women do all sorts of gestures and mumbo jumbo:D

Silvio Berlusconi still owes me money from 1985, I do NOT want it back so I can say he owes it to me :thumbsup:
 
timbook2 said:
you see: I might also loose a reputation, if my client goes under WHILE and BECAUSE he blew his money hiring ME!
Click to expand...

Dude... I appreciate your injection of culture here. I love Italy!

All I'm saying is that this whole larger conversation is beyond ridiculous... I've been giving it a certain degree of respect out of respect for those supporting this idea... but the ONLY way this whole idea makes sense is if you're convincing somebody that you can deliver something you can't.

The subject is insane... people buy cars that aren't right for them, houses that aren't right for them... open restaurants and go bankrupt...

This isn't an american thing... this is a professional thing. You either are one, or you aren't. When you get hired, deliver what you promise, if not more... if it doesn't work out in the end that is simply NOT your problem.

I can't stress this point enough... if this concept of a company going under in the process of paying you... is disturbing to you... then you are MOST CERTAINLY in the WRONG business. :grin:

Video (or FILM) has been self destructing since it began in the beginning of the LAST century... you could spend the rest of your life... 24/7... watching crap video (or FILM) projects that lost investors money.
 
well I can't afford not to care. Continuing to pick berries as the bush rapidly dies hardly gives me a leg to stand on when it can no longer produce berries.
This fact is what has sent me looking back at my entire career. Seldom have I been required and in the cases I was, there were a boatload of people involved who were not.
As the second great depression grows nearer, man I really hate to watch people waist stuff... anything, much less ensure the loss of more jobs next year.
The truth is, as artists go, there are very few that are not capable. As execs who hire these artists go, there are very few who are capable.
This whole hiring someone to hire somebody thing is what has to change for us to keep doing what we do. There is not enough fat for middle men anymore and I don't see that changing even after the economy starts mending... which is years from now.
 
I don't understand how this is remotely logical... I'm filling my basket with berries and complaining about the health of the bush (which is, in this case, harmed by picking the berries). If I care about this... I can do several things...

1) I can STOP PICKING THE BERRIES.

2) I can fertilize the bush (offer some good ideas to the company).

3) I can water the the bush (offer some occasional FREE WORK to the company that's been paying me... which will prevent ANY berries from being picked by ME or by anyone else... increasing the health of the bush).

4) If the bush has a brain, and a plan, and communicates to me a desire to trade berries for a service that I can offer... I can pick the berries that ripened in front of me.


All I'm saying is that I would never pick the berries AND complain about the failing health of the bush. I've never been one to say "we" when the argument is really "me"... so if you are doing things to hurt a company and profiting in that transaction... don't pull me into it. :) The thread title says "we"... and I can guarantee you I've earned my basket of berries within the boundaries of professional transactions.


I've shot a bunch of video for a local GREEN guy... and it's all about green... but of course flying private planes for entertainment, or driving a 500hp Audi on his own time... while being seen at green events in the Prius... is different because it's "me" doing it (not me=me... me=him)... and yet... "what can we all do to turn this around?"... hey great... let your car coast down the driveway before starting it... save that 25' of gas-burning distance... meanwhile the guy promoting that burns 50x that much gas goosing it down the entrance ramp.

The point is that people rationalize their own choices within a system of which they are critical...

From my above analogy... I choose #4 every time. It's ethical, professional, and logical... but perhaps your situation is different.


If your real point is that the people hiring you... who in turn were hired by somebody else... if THEY... the people hiring you... are the problem... then the point is still mute... because it isn't self-destruction... it's somebody else causing the destruction... of which we are no consequence.
 
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I really think this is a relevant and important conversation precisely because it is not simple.

On the one hand I agree that as a hired contractor you only have one primary responsibility. That is to do what the client asks.

On the other hand, there is a practical reality about choosing to not contribute to something that can be harmful to both your business and that of the person writing your check. No to mention (under certain circumstances) our conscience.

For the most part we serve an industry that is largely frivolous, ego driven and wasteful. That is not to say there is not valuable work being done, or that the end products we produce are not sometimes valuable assets. But most of the money spent is designed to make someone (or a group of some-ones) look good. When it comes to vanity and self-image it has become increasingly obvious that people will spend far beyond their means. That position rarely gives people an objective perspective on wise spending. Is that our fault? No. Are there times when we can try to give a reality check? Yes. Will it work? Rarely.

But for me, I would rather ask the question before I take the check. At least then I have a clear conscience if I decide to proceed. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Sometimes it actually makes a difference to the client that I am concerned about their goals and needs.

And I want to be clear about something. I'm not implying that taking that check should bother you. If it doesn't, that's great. But there is also nothing wrong with you if it does.
 
The bush/berry thing doesn't work anyway, because bushes are supposed to lose as many berries as possible. That's why the berries are there. Picking them isn't any worse or better for the bush, than leaving them...

Do we believe that if we decide to honcho our clients' businesses for them, it would even be appreciated? Heck, no. If a prospective client comes to you with harebrained stupidity for which he's anxious to pay, if you don't oblige him someone else will. This is not a moral issue like theft or black marketeering: you offer an absolutely legal (and presumably ethical) service, and if the client's application for your service is ill-considered, it's on them.

Now if a client engages you to conceive and plan and budget their project - basically their hands are off the tiller and they're paying you for full beginning-to-end creative services under your absolute direction - that might be different. But that doesn't sound at all like the situation most people describe.
 
SadMax... we are posting the same thing with different words... I like the berry bush thing you just threw out though... that's something Colbert would have said in this analogy.


I've been strung along on promises for projects where I tried to convince the producers of the error in their ways... trying to help them produce a better product and be ethical in the process... expressing concerns about deferred pay and the overall prospects of the project as it's being executed.

Then I've watched that same project TANK... along with any chance of getting paid because of somebody else's poor judgement.

If you think YOU are the reason a poorly run business goes under... you're kidding yourself. You are merely a facet of THEIR self-destruction... it's not the other way around.

To feel bad for accepting payment for doing what you were hired to do is mind blowing to me... I wish I could look you in the eye and convince you of the problem with even thinking like this. Ultimately THAT is way more self-destructive then this other topic... I've been lucky enough to work with some really talented and strong-willed professionals here in STL... and this thread is making me realize some of the hidden value in those relationships.
 
I agree, but there is a middle ground. I was approached by a client to create a video project for them that would have cost X number of dollars. I said great, and we sat down to chat. As we started to talk about the project and the need it was supposed to fill, it became obvious to me that this was not the best use of their dollars. I explained this to them, and while they were reluctant at first (due to how 'cool' they thought their original idea was), they eventually saw what I was talking about. We wound up doing a project that cost them half the money and was twice as effective.

That is now a long-term, happy client who recommends us not only for our skill at shooting and delivering a video, but for being honest and not just taking the money.

EDIT: Matt, I posted right as you did. You mentioning trying to explain it to the client is the key issue to me.
 
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Hm. Money and feeeeeelings...

How do I put this in plain terms?

They don't belong together.
 
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I disagree. People's feelings toward you have a great deal of influence upon the likelihood that they will give you their money.
 
true. My sales force consists of my happy clients.
If you are not in the friend-making business, you just aint in business.
 
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the "destruction" of the industry. Sometimes we get tunnel vision within our own world/industry. I always talk business with one of my roommates and we deal with the exact same problems, the exact same inefficiencies, and client waste. I operate my own, small video production company, he works for the nations largest accounting firm. The same problems exist in every industry. If you get out of video production and get a salary office job somewhere, you'll be doing the same thing: getting paid to do your part while watching all this other waste and inefficiency around you.

So if the world isn't perfect and these problems will exist in every industry, why not pick what you love to do and be thrilled that you get to do it for a living, even if it means taking some jobs you don't like?
 
grinner said:
I feel ya Jim. While I can't afford to pass up on gigs today, I know I can't afford to keep helping them kill their department.
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Are you kidding? It's their money. You're not responsible for how they spend it. As you said, it's either you or them. Right now they may be over spending but it's a lot of people getting paid. How I long and pray to be on one of these high spending over paying gigs - then I can afford to pay the people working with me.

I don't want to give actors and my crew low pay. I do it because I don't have a lot of money. One of the great things is a lot of my cast really want to be in an action film so they'll do it for a little pay to show off their skills - IF THE MOVIE IS GOING TO BE SEEN. My main actors are getting $75 a day which is good but not great. My camera person is getting less than I charge. It's a liveable rate, I would take it, but it's not what I would charge and probably not what she charges.

If I got one of these gigs, I'd take it in a minute. Take all their money and save it, pay may bills and make my films. It's not my art I could care less if it gets seen. It's a work for hire and they do as they feel with it. It still goes on my resume no matter what. I'd still have my cut for my reel no matter what. The stuff I write and really care about, that's what I want that to be seen as do my actors. The other stuff is a job. It's like teaching. I like teaching. I have a friend who hates it, but you know what, it's a job that will help me get where I want to be. I work it, I'm good at it and I'll do it as long as it's there and does get in the way of my real stuff. (My film making).

Big companies that throw money around will always throw money around until either they make more or fold. My job is to manage my finances better than they do. If they want me to do something I'm morally opposed to, that's one thing, but other than that I will do good work for them and take their money and sleep very well.

People are poor because of lack of work. If there is work, I sure won't complain because the company over hires. I simply want to be there when they over hire again. It's like temping at Motorala. They want a warm body. Take the money, work when they need you. You know they fire a bunch of people every few years then rehire. Save your money, pay your rent a few months in advance if you can. You know the ax is coming, it always does.

Something tells me you're not not getting a huge AIG bonus. You're a cameraman working for hire. You got no benefits, no back up, just a paycheck. Believe me, they're probably not wasting a moment of sleep over your bottom line. They will cut the check to you, Jim me or anyone on this forum known to do the work. The industry may or may not implode. Save your money, learn another trade. Keep your camera warm by exploring your artistic endeavors and be ready when they call with that big money. And thank God you have the work and that they're not in charge of overseeing your bank account, your average person simply doesn't have ability (and may never have it) to spend aimlessly as these companies do. I wouldn't do it if I had the money. Not to mention to some of these places failure equals a tax write off.

grinner said:
true. My sales force consists of my happy clients.
If you are not in the friend-making business, you just aint in business.
Click to expand...

Now that's real right there. This is what I have to do better with. Networking and getting that call. We'll see what happens when I get a new camera. I may even get that big a full size camera at some point just to have that oh so wanted big camera appearance.

-Nate
 
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Sad Max said:
I disagree. People's feelings toward you have a great deal of influence upon the likelihood that they will give you their money.
Click to expand...


That's relationship sales and networking. He was bringing feelings into money matters. They don't belong there. Feelings can exist in relationship sales and networking, but when it comes to dollars and cents, if you can't keep it strictly business, your business won't survive long.
 
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