At a crossroads.

[WpgCameraMan]

I'm in a pickle, looking for some advice.

I worked with a group of about 125 folks, went overseas for two weeks, the deal was I would travel with them and document the happenings, then produce a 2 hour DVD. They paid my way (same travel, meals, rooms as everyone else) but I had to supply all my own gear and consumables (I spent maybe $400 on DV tapes & stuff). I didn't get paid for any of this. Shooting or editing.

Now... I did this same thing with them several years ago, and it took me about 18 months to deliver the finished disc. This time I'm at 24 months and counting, and I'm maybe 60% done. They've had enough and asked for the raw footage, and I can give them the edited first hour with keys and music, it's pretty much ready to go.

Like most of us here, I've been struggling to make ends meet. I'm in no way the best at what I do, but I also don't shoot weddings and hand over the tape at the end of the night for $75. There are also some personal issues that have come up.... those aren't helping...

I've been living under a cloud of stress and anxiety about this project, the times that I'm able to edit... where I feel I'm on top of my game and actually doing something productive.... those times are rare... rare enough that I'm even having problems completing my paying work in a reasonable time.

There's nothing wrong with the original footage, it's not like I did a crappy job. My first trip with this group resulted in the finest work I've ever produced, and this one is right up there.

The trip wasn't cheap, I think $4,500. Should I give them some money along with the footage? This whole deal is going to put a mark on my good name... but part of the original idea (hope, dream, wish.... phhhttt) years ago was that I could drum up some business in that community... and that the final video would get a public screening as had been done in previous years... well, nothing happened, and I committed to the 2nd trip on the heels of possibilities when I finished the first video.

This is almost like a poison to my soul... a member of my family said they would be very disappointed in me if I 'gave up' like this... that stings.

I think I'm past the point of asking for an extension, I have no .. I won't say interest.. I just.. don't have it in me anymore.

 

[Sad Max]

Well, what does your contract with them say? Usually that's the first place to look when you have this sort of difficult stuff, to resolve...

*edit* as for people who will be 'disappointed' with your decision, one way or another - sorry, if it isn't their professional and personal life involved, they don't get a vote and their disappointment does not count. I realize that family connections can make things more difficult and that you care about the opinions of people you love - but those people ought to understand that since you are stuck with the consequences, you are the one who's going to make the calls, no questions asked.

 

[Fahad]

could you afford to have someone else do it in a very quick time?

 

[Otis Grapsas]

I assume there is no contract.

I would say that $4500 barely covers two weeks of work and cost of supplies. Even if you only gave them the raw footage, they would still have an excellent deal.

But you also put in editing for free. Dozens of hours on editing the material at 0$ an hour.

Sorry about what I will say, but the first sign of exploitation is a guilt complex by the victim.

These 125 guys paid about $36 each for the production and postproduction of a 2 hour documentary. 0.8% of the trip cost ($0.5million). The cost of a 2 hour documentary is a lot more than $4,500. It's not a 2 hour wedding. The raw material from something like that must be dozens of hours.

But, you actually got $0 for your production. Travel+expenses is something we add to our fee, not something that can substitute it. I don't think you actually had a very good time on those 2 weeks, keeping in mind the shooting situations, the restrictions, and your responsibility on production.

Don't worry about business in that community. They expect you to work for very little money or free and now they put pressure on you. They knew what they are getting into. A few hours of editing per week by a single person and delivery time of more than a year, just like the previous project. But they are ok with that because they editing and post is free.

Don't worry about your good name either. Any damage to your good name probably came from working with these guys under these conditions in the first place. You could IMHO actually improve your good name by ending the deal.

I believe they just want to rush you into delivering the material. They don't really want the raw material. But like many people who do not appreciate the work of others, they think editing is simple, and the delay is because you are not spending time on it. And they do want to get the editing. It is free.

I would simply give them the raw footage without any editing work.

But, if you would like to finish it even though they don't appreciate your work and the excellent deal they got, offer them an alternative. Tell them they will have to wait 3 months for editing to finish or whatever you see fit.

In any case, don't let them stress you emotionally.

 

[Sad Max]

Don't worry about your good name either. Any damage to your good name probably came from working with these guys under these conditions in the first place. You could IMHO actually improve your good name by ending the deal.

That's a great point. There's little benefit to being known for suffering fools (or villains) gladly.

 

[WpgCameraMan]

Some good words there... and Otis hit on some very good points too. They'll get the +38hrs of raw footage and the one hour of edited material. I cannot complete this in any reasonable amount of time, and it's not fair to deny them the opportunity to find someone who can.

I've never ended a situation like this before... very uncharacteristic of me.

 

[Pookie]

Sadly you agreed to take on the project, and you did it (presumably) for your reel.
Two years in.... I would expect them to be less than pleased. Give them the raw footage plus the edits you've already finished and admit you were in over your head. They paid your travel expenses and were seemingly very generous on the time frame, do whatever you need to appease them now.
This falls into the "man up" and take it, everyone has these moments, and this is where your personal integrity is tested. Go meet with them, explain it was simply beyond your ability (you should probably have done that long ago), take your lumps and do whatever you have to make a bad situation work. You won't feel good about it, but it's the right thing to do.

 

[Chamber005]

Wow, yeah, I'd agree -- bad decision to take on the project in any sort of business sense. Editing two weeks of footage for free? Twice?

The problem is that you didn't ask to get paid the second time. In business, for me, money 95% of the time needs to be the incentive to do a good job in a timely manner. I think 5% is the stuff we do in "hopes" that XYZ "might" occur. So 95% of my business day is spent actively, aggressively, marketing, and 5% is about Outlook updates reminding me to call Greg to wish him good luck on his interview next week because Greg might someday get me a referral, right?

Give them the footage and then apologize and tell them SPECIFICALLY that because of your PAYING WORK and because you were having to use your PERSONAL TIME to work on this that you simply couldn't get it done in a timely fashion.

Since you have no contract, *I* would then tell them, "But look, I have openings in the next few weeks. If you'd like to hire me to finish the project based on what I did with the previous project, I'd be willing to forego any other paying jobs to get this finished for you. I'm sorry, but I'm a working professional and this is a favor that I should never have considered after doing the first one for free. Collecting the footage for you was a favor, editing it was another favor --" And if he/she tries to bring up that they paid for your trip, etc., you just bring up that, "Yeah, and that was based on the original job I did for you at no charge whatsoever -- which is what I was doing with this project. But because I couldn't forecast growth, the free time that I had on the origjnal video I couldn't commit to this video."

Him: "Well then you should have never taken the project."

You: "You're absolutely right, I agree. I should have charged you upfront for expenses plus the cost to edit the video. If I could have foreseen that I wouldn't have the kind of free time needed to complete these kinds of favors, I wouldn't have done it. But that was then and now is now. So you can either take the hour that I've edited and the excess of unedited footage and pay for someone else to finish the job, or you can hire me at my current rate minus 25%. That's the absolute best I can do. Because of the circumstances I'm willing to take 25% off my rate."

He then hopefully asks you about your rates and you turn this into a paying gig. Personally, I think you're in a position of power because YOU have the footage. Believe me, *he* knows that you have all the power. He knows that HE does not own whatever it is you shot on your camera and he knows that it would take a lot of legal costs to get that footage (which you could easliy destroy at any minute, accidentally). YOU have all the leverage in this business transaction. What, is he going to take you to court and make you pay him back the expenses for having taken you on vacation? Please. No contracts, it's your word against his. You could easily say that you guys had a conversation in which you would discuss monetary stuff after the trip etc, etc. Unless you were thick enough to put a bunch of stuff in writing and in email, then...man, too many lessons to count on this one then.

And I'm not saying hold his footage hostage. That is so, so wrong. I'm just trying to imbue you with some confidence. If he liked your first video enough to bring you along on a second, then there is NO REASON why he shouldn't pay you a reasonable fee to finish the job. And in the end, dude, the 120 people aren't going to give a crap that this guy talks crap about his experience of working with you -- if the product and the price is right and, of course, you MARKET to these people (which I'm just not sure you must have done effectively if you didn't see any additional jobs from these people after the first video that was so awesome) you'll get customers based on the product. Artists are always given a little leeway regardless.

Bottom line, I too say "man up", but I say, "You know what, I made a mistake. You need to pay me."

The customer will hear: "You know what, I made a mistake. You need to pay me...or you're never going to get this footage."

lol

It sounds creepy, but you're a PROFESSIONAL, man!! You accepted a non-paying gig, TWICE! This dude USED YOU!!! OF COURSE he's supposed to cover expenses, that's a GIVEN! But now you are literally sulking and destroyed because this guy USED YOU, WALKED ALL OVER YOUR GOOD NATURE, and has convinced you that YOU'RE the bad guy?!

Yes! Man up! Man up and get paid like a damn man!

smackitonetime!

 

[WpgCameraMan]

Wow, yeah, I'd agree -- bad decision to take on the project in any sort of business sense. Editing two weeks of footage for free? Twice?

smackitonetime!

The majority of other people on this trip were kids, it was their parents and their community I was hoping to cozy up to. Not having that public screening for my first video was a kick in the jewels... I didn't want a parade, but I sure would have loved to see a crowd reaction, shake some hands. But ya, unexpected things came up, I had to put more time into my business, and anything personal just dried up. Last year, I took ONE day off for pure personal glee and enjoyment (fishing and beer with a friend at his cabin).. the rest was working, business travel. Commitment or not, I can't keep going like this. Last year I literally had a problem keeping a roof over my head (older house, partial roof failure over the only bathroom).. I've had no drywall or sink since then, and whenever I find a 'free' day not working for pay, I have panic attacks when I start in with the tools, knowing this one project is still around my neck.

I can't even start to think about getting paid to finish this, even money can't put my mind in the right place.. even though the first part was the hardest to edit with all the emotion and grief of the footage. But I am done.. going out to pick up a 500GB drive today.

I guess.. the first trip & video were so personal for me, I felt it reverberate the whole time I was working on it. Those 18 months it took to edit seemed 'right', any quicker it would have been an injustice to the subject matter. The 2nd trip, .. I think the moment I got to the airport, whatever got me to that point had just vanished. Didn't stop me from getting good footage, but less-than-zero drive for the edit, and then with everything else I was going through after, just not happening.

 

[milksac]

This is almost like a poison to my soul... a member of my family said they would be very disappointed in me if I 'gave up' like this... that stings.

I couple of thoughts about this:

1) Stop being so dramatic. "Poison to my soul"??? I think Jack Kerouac just vomited. It's a travel video, nothing more nothing less. Some might call it a glorified home video. Hand over the tapes, get over it and move on.

2) A family member is disappointed? BFD. Congratulations you have a dysfunctional family - just like every other family on the face of the earth. If you ever meet someone that says their family isn't dysfunctional then they're lying. If your family member wants to play the judgement game dig your heels in and find something really distasteful about this family member to be disappointed about. Perhaps he/she is an alcoholic or hasn't been faithful to his/her spouse. Now that's something to be disappointed about. Failure to finish some crappy video is hardly worth mentioning at Thanksgiving dinner.

This is worth repeating:

You accepted a non-paying gig, TWICE! This dude USED YOU!!! OF COURSE he's supposed to cover expenses, that's a GIVEN! But now you are literally sulking and destroyed because this guy USED YOU, WALKED ALL OVER YOUR GOOD NATURE, and has convinced you that YOU'RE the bad guy?!

Again, it's time to turn the lights off on the pity party and move on.

 

[Terry_Lasater]

I am Pookie's complete lack of surprise.

I am Pookie's complete lack of surprise.

Sadly you agreed to take on the project, and you did it (presumably) for your reel.
Two years in.... I would expect them to be less than pleased. Give them the raw footage plus the edits you've already finished and admit you were in over your head. They paid your travel expenses and were seemingly very generous on the time frame, do whatever you need to appease them now.
This falls into the "man up" and take it, everyone has these moments, and this is where your personal integrity is tested. Go meet with them, explain it was simply beyond your ability (you should probably have done that long ago), take your lumps and do whatever you have to make a bad situation work. You won't feel good about it, but it's the right thing to do.

Exactly.

 

[Chamber005]

Exactly.

And try to GET PAID!

All this personal emotional stuff shouldn't even be an aspect of the conversation. The only mistake you made was letting yourself get taken advantage of as a business person. THAT is the only mistake you made. It wasn't a mistake telling someone you could do something that you couldn't do -- at the time, you honestly thought you could do it. And I'm willing to bet, had this been a well PAYING gig, the thing would be finished and printed and you'd be continuing on with another success story.

This is what happens when you work for free...twice.

The terrifying thing is that had you actually finished the project, he would have done it to you again...and again...and again.

You not finishing this project was your competetive, confident self demanding that you be APPRECIATED for the value and service you provide.

So, yeah, "Scared money don't make no money."

True dat, son.