Ask For Forgiveness... Not For Permission?

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lalugela

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I'm a big fan of the phrase "ask for forgiveness, not for permission" on shoots— because 99.9% of the time, in my experience, we do no harm to anyone or anything.

So I'm shooting a music video that calls for some fireworks— nothing HUGE: a couple of big fountains, a bunch of roman candles, etc. We're shooting in a really secluded, industrial area with nobody around... there isn't enough time to get a permit... should I be worried? Does anyone have any experience with shooting pyrotechnics/ dealing with police/fire? Fortunately it's a one take music video, and the whole shoot is over in 4.5 minutes.

If they do come, will they slap me on the wrist or will it be more serious?

Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated. Full disclosure: I normally play by the rules, and I don't pride myself on breaking them. I'm not a pyromaniac. This is a passion project, and safety of the band and crew is our top priority.
 
Find out what the local ordinances are, check out the penalties, and decide if you are willing to take the worst of them, should you run across a humorless peace officer.
 
i swear officer, i had no idea that setting off fireworks in that abandoned industrial area could have caused that massive of an explosion.
 
In fact shortly before we shot The Last of the Mohicans in North Carolina, the local government had a bad experience with some guy who wanted to shoot a horror/action movie at the brand-new wing of the county hospital. Which his pyro set on fire, and burned to the ground.

Then again, he did have a permit so the city government had little room, to complain.
 
I would say having dealt with the police and security guards on a number of shoots, don't do it. I hate uncomfortable situations in general, and the stress/paranoia of knowing your precious project could get screwed at any moment 'cause you're NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE THERE is just not worth it.

It also depends on the situation. Shooting at a location you don't have permission to be? Security comes and boots you off. Shooting somewhere you're not supposed to be with FIRE? Not good. Wouldn't do it. I've had everything happen from simply being asked to leave to almost having footage confiscated by police. Sure, you can be one of those "the law states that cops can't. . .", but YOU try arguing with police. End up a headline. We'll all have a good laugh.
 
It depends on a pretty huge number of things. With fireworks, depending on how illegal that is, I would tend to avoid it. Where I used to live I would have done it with no problem just because the cops didn't care and the laws were pretty lax in that area, but I don't know where you live. The first response is the only one that matters in this thread- are you willing to risk the worst case scenario?
 
Yeah, make sure you have everyone sign something so that you're not held liable should they burn to death. Beyond that, yeah -- I'd be more concerned that the police would come and shut me down more than I would be worried about anything else about permits. If you're going to be there for less than an hour you'll probably be fine. You should always have a police scanner on hand to keep track of things if you're going into truly forbidden lands, tho.
 
Brian_Rice said:
Yeah, make sure you have everyone sign something so that you're not held liable should they burn to death. Beyond that, yeah -- I'd be more concerned that the police would come and shut me down more than I would be worried about anything else about permits. If you're going to be there for less than an hour you'll probably be fine. You should always have a police scanner on hand to keep track of things if you're going into truly forbidden lands, tho.
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So it's okay if someone burns to death, as long as nobody can sue you for it? Wow...

It's not that hard to obey the rules. It's really not.
 
David W. Richardson said:
So it's okay if someone burns to death, as long as nobody can sue you for it? Wow...It's not that hard to obey the rules. It's really not.
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Lol pretty sure that's not what I said. Whether or not he has a permit to shoot in a location has nothing whatsoever to do with safety. You mentioned people dying and I was simply confirming that he should make sure to cover his ass (eg just because you're not covering your ass one way does not mean you should just dismiss your ass altogether) .
 
lalugela said:
This is a passion project, and safety of the band and crew is our top priority.
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If that's true, then you have liability insurance, right? Because if someone should get hurt -- even from just stepping on a nail or tripping and breaking their arm -- you want them to be taken care of. Right? Well believe me, your insurance company is NOT going to pay any claim if an accident occurs on a location that you didn't have permission to use. Then what? If you're lucky, all you have to pay is the medical expenses -- out of your own pocket. Worst case scenario -- they (or their heirs) sue you for everything they can get.

There's a reason why it's smart to follow the rules -- and stupidly risky not to.
 
And the second you consider pyrotechnics for a shoot, you need a qualified pyro crew to ensure safety. You never know what could happen. Anyone remember Great White? http://articles.cnn.com/2003-02-21/...club-stampede-rhode-island-nightclub?_s=PM:US
They had a "trained" pyro crew and look what happened. You on the other hand, have really no pyro training.

Doing what you are talking doing about is extremely unwise, and I would be very concerned for you and your cast/crew's safety. Not to mention the surrounding residents/tenants/factories/etc. You would be taking risks they will have to share in without a say so. Is that fair to them?

If anything goes wrong, you will single-handedly make things tough and possibly impossible for other film-makers in your area. And with that reputation, what do you think your chances of ever collaborating on or crewing up for another film will be?

So is it worth it? Is that shot worth becoming the pariah of film-making in your area? Knowing you were the one that burned down someone's house/got someone hurt/cost a bunch of people their jobs/went to jail. I have not even touched on the financial ruin you will be in. Or the possibility of dangerous chemicals/industrial wastes at an abandoned industrial complex. Some of that stuff affects you years later.

So if any of the aforementioned things occur, no. It would be easier to have asked permission, than to ask for forgiveness, because you probably won't be given forgiveness.
 
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The whole idea of "I'd rather ask forgiveness than permission" is just a cop-out for lazy folks who can't be bothered to obey the rules and respect the rights of other people. Don't be that guy.
 
David W. Richardson said:
If that's true, then you have liability insurance, right? Because if someone should get hurt -- even from just stepping on a nail or tripping and breaking their arm -- you want them to be taken care of. Right? Well believe me, your insurance company is NOT going to pay any claim if an accident occurs on a location that you didn't have permission to use. Then what? If you're lucky, all you have to pay is the medical expenses -- out of your own pocket. Worst case scenario -- they (or their heirs) sue you for everything they can get.

There's a reason why it's smart to follow the rules -- and stupidly risky not to.
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I agree -- follow the rules.

But is this really correct about the insurance? I'd need to see something where this precedent has been set. Liability insurance, as I've always understood it, protects the insured. E.g. the person employing these people would have liability insurance. If my employee went to lunch and choked to death on a sandwhich in the middle of the street, I wouldn't be held liable. If my employee fell from a scaffolding that I put them up on -- my insurance should cover me in that regard. Whether or not I had a permit to be on that scaffolding shouldn't exclusively limit the protections of my insurance. To bring it together for clarity: If I instructed my employee to go out onto the sidewalk and eat their lunch (a sidewalk that I had not secured the right to use) and my employee then choked and died on their sandwich, I should be protected via my liability insurance. Unless I'm missing something.
 
Insurance does not cover you if you commit an illegal or irresponsible act. Insurance is there in case something goes wrong, as in you followed all the rules and did your very best but something didn't work out right and something bad happened. The advice to have the crew sign a waiver so that you can then put them in harm's way and not be held responsible? Moronic. The document is legally worthless. One cannot assign rights and responsibilities. I see this all the time where productions try to get people to sign liability waivers and they are a load of crap. If something happens then in the US I can sue you and I will win.

I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. Not getting permission beforehand because it will likely not be granted is wrong. There are probably good reasons it would not be granted and it is not your right t circumvent them.
 
You know, this is the digital age. Just because you need fireworks in a shot, that doesn't mean you have to actually set off fireworks.

Find a stock footage shot of fireworks in a night sky. Should be tons of them out there. Compositing that into night shots of pretty much any location should be a fairly easy thing to do. No one endangered. No property rights violated. And you get the shot you want.
 
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