ARRI Launches ALEXA Mini LF

[Eric Coughlin]

Article on a short film shot with the Sony Venice and Fuji Premista.

https://ymcinema.com/2019/05/30/the...ujinon-premista-to-be-premiered-at-cine-gear/

 

[Guest]

What’s your take away from those videos?

 

[Eric Coughlin]

What’s your take away from those videos?

My takeaway is that I want to buy a Fuji 28-100 as a base lens for the Alexa LF assuming Arri or Angenieux don't come out with a better solution.

Not really from the videos, but moreso from further looking at this lens. I like working with zooms and this could be a better alternative than getting a set of CN-e primes or the Anegenuix EZ lenses in order to do full frame. The Signature Primes would be nice to get over time but I can't currently afford a usable set up front.

 

[Gary T]

Less vignetting? Does this mean that PL-to-LPL Adapter has more vignetting than the LPL mount and therefore you'd be better off with LPL mount lenses at the cost of those lenses having less versatility with other cameras?

Also, can someone explain the importance of lens metadata and how the LPL lenses offer more in this regard? Is this something so that say an editor doing VFX work can see the focal length and aperture and use that knowledge for matching VFX shots? What other data is there aside from focal length, distance, and T-stop?

\\

I looked into this a little back after Arri posted their Alexa LF launch videos when researching their WCU-4 unit. I'm not aware of any metadata advantages LPL lenses have but ARRI's metadata spec extends to their FIZ units and tracks encoder and motor metadata data in addition to standard lens info like focal length and iris. It even captures which ND filters are used.

This metadata cascades throughout their pipeline making it much easier in post and when those nasty reshoots pop up. Apparently it's possible to calibrate compatible third party lenses with the system but ARRI lenses seem to just work out of the box.

This is way out of my price range but maybe one day I'll get to work with it as a rental.

Here is a link to ARRI's lens metadata page opened to the section on the types of metadata captured.

https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/...uestions/lens-data-system-faq#accordion-44048

 

[Guest]

My takeaway is that I want to buy a Fuji 28-100 as a base lens for the Alexa LF assuming Arri or Angenieux don't come out with a better solution.

Not really from the videos, but moreso from further looking at this lens. I like working with zooms and this could be a better alternative than getting a set of CN-e primes or the Anegenuix EZ lenses in order to do full frame. The Signature Primes would be nice to get over time but I can't currently afford a usable set up front.

Yeah,the Premista was one of those lenses where i had to make sure i was seeing it all right. It was just good.

 

[Grug]

My takeaway is that I want to buy a Fuji 28-100 as a base lens for the Alexa LF assuming Arri or Angenieux don't come out with a better solution.

Not really from the videos, but moreso from further looking at this lens. I like working with zooms and this could be a better alternative than getting a set of CN-e primes or the Anegenuix EZ lenses in order to do full frame. The Signature Primes would be nice to get over time but I can't currently afford a usable set up front.

You should take a look at the Zeiss Cinema Zooms CZ.2, gorgeous glass with zero CA, and beautiful bokeh. They're just starting to find their feet on more large-scale productions now that the Supreme Primes are out in the world.

They're a little warmer in tone than Ultra Primes, and I've actually found they cut in beautifully with Cooke S4s, very similar contrast.

And at $20,900 USD each, you can have the 28-80mm and 70-200mm for just a tad more than the Fuji 28-100mm by itself.

Well worth a look-in.

 

[Guest]

You should take a look at the Zeiss Cinema Zooms CZ.2, gorgeous glass with zero CA, and beautiful bokeh. They're just starting to find their feet on more large-scale productions now that the Supreme Primes are out in the world.

They're a little warmer in tone than Ultra Primes, and I've actually found they cut in beautifully with Cooke S4s, very similar contrast.

And at $20,900 USD each, you can have the 28-80mm and 70-200mm for just a tad more than the Fuji 28-100mm by itself.

Well worth a look-in.

It’s funny, 6 years ago, i first tried the CZ’s and was not all that into them. Now i wish i had a set.

 

[Grug]

It’s funny, 6 years ago, i first tried the CZ’s and was not all that into them. Now i wish i had a set.

I love them, the only real gripe is that the FIZ rings on the 28-80mm and 70-200mm don't line up with each other.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

You don't consider the Fuji a step up optically from the Zeiss zooms? I used the Zeiss 28-80 on one multi-day shoot once with a C300 and was not a fan of the zoom range; 28mm just wasn't wide enough for Super35, but it's a decent range for FF. I always thought the Zeiss zooms and Canon zooms were in the same bracket, mid-range zooms, and then you had Angenieux, Fuji, and Arri at the high end. So you gain 80-100 on the Fuji at the cost of being 2.7 lbs heavier, twice the price, and I'm guessing better optically but feel free to chime in. Perhaps I'm just assuming at twice the price it would have better optics.

Nice that Zeiss has the 15-30 as 28mm often is not wide enough, particularly for Steadicam or tight interiors. It's not that uncommon for me to shoot at 15.5 on my Canon 15.5-47. 28mm on FF would be about 20mm framing on Super35. Could always switch to a wide prime when necessary. I wonder if Fuji will come out with a wider Premista zoom.

 

[Grug]

I’ve yet to see a Premista in the wild, so can’t comment beyond what I saw in that promo video (which looked lovely).

I’ve projected the CZ.2s up against Ultra Primes though, and they comfortably match the UPs for resolution and distortion, and beat them for CA performance. Colour-wise they’re closer to Master Primes than the Ultras (more neutral, less cool).

28-80mm definitely isn’t ideal (for me at least) on S35mm. It’s perfect on FF though - 18-55mm on S35mm is where I live 95% of the time.

And the CZ.2s are on another level (optically) to the Canon zooms, which have CA and some unpleasant distortion characteristics. The Canons have much more appropriate focal ranges for S35mm (which probably shouldn’t be surprising given they’re S35mm lenses and the CZ.2s aren’t).

I had many sleepless nights trying to decide between the Canon zooms and the Zeisses, but ultimately I just didn’t want to deal with the optical limitations of the Canons (I was moving up from a set of CP.2s precisely because I needed better optical performance), opting for the less convenient zoom range (on S35mm) was hard though.

 

[CharlesPapert]

You should take a look at the Zeiss Cinema Zooms CZ.2, gorgeous glass with zero CA, and beautiful bokeh. They're just starting to find their feet on more large-scale productions now that the Supreme Primes are out in the world.

They're a little warmer in tone than Ultra Primes, and I've actually found they cut in beautifully with Cooke S4s, very similar contrast.

And at $20,900 USD each, you can have the 28-80mm and 70-200mm for just a tad more than the Fuji 28-100mm by itself.

Well worth a look-in.

That's about the kindest words I've heard about those zooms, although I would add that the 28-80 always benched particularly well from a sharpness standpoint. I've owned the 70-200 in PL for years and it's sort of the black sheep of my lens set--covers the need for a handholdable long lens, or a quick change from the wider lightweight zooms without having to re-rig into studio mode. But I am keenly aware that it is not a true T2.9 lens, it ramps at the telephoto lens about 1/3 of a stop (which Zeiss reps have admitted to me, somewhat sheepishly). And it breathes more than some. It's serviceable but hardly a standout. As full frame began to seem like a reality, I realized that this was going to be a more useful asset than my more beloved zooms. However, I believe I heard that the sharpness falls off outside the S35 area, just that nobody was paying attention to that before it was relevant.

 

[Grug]

That's about the kindest words I've heard about those zooms, although I would add that the 28-80 always benched particularly well from a sharpness standpoint. I've owned the 70-200 in PL for years and it's sort of the black sheep of my lens set--covers the need for a handholdable long lens, or a quick change from the wider lightweight zooms without having to re-rig into studio mode. But I am keenly aware that it is not a true T2.9 lens, it ramps at the telephoto lens about 1/3 of a stop (which Zeiss reps have admitted to me, somewhat sheepishly). And it breathes more than some. It's serviceable but hardly a standout. As full frame began to seem like a reality, I realized that this was going to be a more useful asset than my more beloved zooms. However, I believe I heard that the sharpness falls off outside the S35 area, just that nobody was paying attention to that before it was relevant.

The 70-200mm certainly breathes if you look for it. That said, to-date I've never actually encountered a shot or focus pull with it where it's been noticeable (fingers crossed). On FF cameras the breathing should reduce by about 33% (relative to its size on S35mm sensors), which is nice.

I assume the 18-blade aperture on the CZ.2s plays a big part in this, but the thing that probably stands out most to me with the look of the CZ.2s is the smoothness of the bokeh, and the liquidy transitions from the out-of-focus areas into whatever is in focus. It's buttery smooth. So if you stack the foreground with anything to break up your frame (with the 70-200mm in particular) it just looks terrific.

Also, the 70-200mm does becomes a much more appealing focal range on FF. That 50-135mm (equivalent) range covers 95% of any telephoto needs I ever have.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I just saw there's an LPL mount for the original Mini and Amira.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1389639-REG/arri_k2_0018983_arri_lpl_mount_alexa.html


Grug, what are your thoughts on the Arri Alura 15.5-45 and 30-80? You said you liked the zoom range of the Canons, but not the optics and such; the Aluras have a more similar zoom range, and I'm guessing a better image? I've never used them. I'm still living in EF world and the Aluras aren't available in EF mount, and I wasn't really aware of them until nowish. The 18-80 Alura I've had eyes on; great range an T-stop of 2.6, just wish it was lighter weight.

 

[Grug]

I just saw there's an LPL mount for the original Mini and Amira.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1389639-REG/arri_k2_0018983_arri_lpl_mount_alexa.html


Grug, what are your thoughts on the Arri Alura 15.5-45 and 30-80? You said you liked the zoom range of the Canons, but not the optics and such; the Aluras have a more similar zoom range, and I'm guessing a better image? I've never used them. I'm still living in EF world and the Aluras aren't available in EF mount, and I wasn't really aware of them until nowish. The 18-80 Alura I've had eyes on; great range an T-stop of 2.6, just wish it was lighter weight.

I haven't used the Alura's myself so can't really comment much, the 15.5-45mm sounds great for the wide-end, 30-80mm has the same limits as the Angenieuxs (so the Canons are a bit more versatile there). The 18-80mm would be a great workhorse lens, but it is pretty hefty.

As to the look of them? From everything I've seen they're exactly what you'd expect from modern Fuji glass - clean, sharp and neutral. They don't seem to have a 'look' in the same way that the Zeiss and the Angie zooms do - so maybe a good option if you just want a nice straight starting point from your glass.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

So with the idea that the LF is a stop more sensitive, which means you can then stop down the lenses one stop, get similar noise levels and depth of field as Super35, while getting a cleaner image with finer noise when you have enough light to work with, along with more restitution,...yada, yada, yada...where would that leave the expected 4K Super35 Alexa Mini? Like, what would be the benefits of that camera over the LF? I get the FF has a different look; you've got longer focal length lenses with less distortion, etc. So would the primary advantage just be being able to use the various Super35 lenses available along with the antithetical choice of the look? Perhaps a slightly cheaper price point. We know the Super 35 Alexa is coming, but if the LF is already better, then would the Super 35 Alexa not be worth waiting for to see what it is?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

So with the idea that the LF is a stop more sensitive, which means you can then stop down the lenses one stop, get similar noise levels and depth of field as Super35, while getting a cleaner image with finer noise when you have enough light to work with, along with more restitution,...yada, yada, yada...where would that leave the expected 4K Super35 Alexa Mini? Like, what would be the benefits of that camera over the LF? I get the FF has a different look; you've got longer focal length lenses with less distortion, etc. So would the primary advantage just be being able to use the various Super35 lenses available along with the antithetical choice of the look? Perhaps a slightly cheaper price point. We know the Super 35 Alexa is coming, but if the LF is already better, then would the Super 35 Alexa not be worth waiting for to see what it is?

For those that want S35, they’ll have a native 4K option from Arri. There are plenty of people who prefer S35. TV Studios (where S35 is king) still mainly use the original Alexa, and I imagine they’d be all over a 4K S35 Alexa camera (maybe not since 4K Broadcast hasn’t really happened yet)

 

[Grug]

would the primary advantage just be being able to use the various Super35 lenses available along with the antithetical choice of the look?

I think that's precisely the answer. It will be for getting proper 4k S35mm capture (properly downsampled I suspect) for use with all of the great S35mm glass people know and love. Both spherical and 4-perf anamorphic.

I think we'll also see Codex's HDE encoding built in (for 40% smaller Arriraw file sizes).

 

[Gary T]

I think it hard to predict how much better IQ might be on the Alexa Mini 4K since it will be sporting the first truly new ARRI sensor since the original ALEV III was introduced on the Alexa Classic. Arri has had years to work on this so I'd like to think they are planning something big with this new sensor that will blow our minds.

This new sensor might even usher in a series of updates for the Alexa 65 and the Alexa LF over the next couple of years. Imagine the next incarnation of the Alexa 65 with 4 of these 4K sensors stacked to deliver an 8K image.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Grug, what are your thoughts on the Arri Alura 15.5-45 and 30-80? You said you liked the zoom range of the Canons, but not the optics and such; the Aluras have a more similar zoom range, and I'm guessing a better image? I've never used them. I'm still living in EF world and the Aluras aren't available in EF mount, and I wasn't really aware of them until nowish. The 18-80 Alura I've had eyes on; great range an T-stop of 2.6, just wish it was lighter weight.

Eric, I've owned those two lenses for years. I had the full set of Aluras, sold the 18-80 a few years back when I went to the Cabrio. They are indeed clean modern lenses as Grug says. Very good optically, great build quality, never had an issue. Can't say a bad thing about them. I shot probably 60% of Key & Peele on those.

I'm currently selling the 15.5-45 and 30-80 for $13K, which is half of the new price. Two for one! DM me if you are interested.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I think that's precisely the answer. It will be for getting proper 4k S35mm capture (properly downsampled I suspect) for use with all of the great S35mm glass people know and love. Both spherical and 4-perf anamorphic.

I think we'll also see Codex's HDE encoding built in (for 40% smaller Arriraw file sizes).

Typo from me above, "antiethetical" was supposed to be aesthetical.

HDE is already in the Alexa Mini LF...err...what I'm reading is, the Alexa LF records non-HDE, but then on download you can select HDE to decrease the file size. Which means, storage is reduced, but the in-camera cards have to shoot at full data rate, so you're suggesting future Arri cameras will have HDE at the recording stage.

As an owner/operator who wouldn't want to use a different set of lenses on every project (unless it was really high end with a very chunky labor rate) and would push for using their own single set of primes they've invested heavily in, I feel like that versatility of lens choice doesn't benefit the owner/operator much assuming they can find a single set of full frame primes they're happy to buy.

Assuming Arri doesn't do actual sensor upgrades in terms of color and dynamic range, the Alexa LF would still have a superior (cleaner and higher resolution) image over the new 4K Alexa. I always hear talk of smaller pixel size negatively affecting image quality, so I'm gathering either Arri will have to make a breakthrough to get the same or better image quality in order to get to 4K, or compromises will need to be made. In terms of exacting specs cameras like the C500 Mark II are great that they have 6K at full frame and 4K at Super35, but their image is not up to Arri standards.



Ya'll think the 4K Alexa Mini or the Alexa LF will be the more popular camera?