ARRI Alexa joins RED to kill celluloid in 2010

Gabrobot said:
And I don't even know how to respond to your comment on primes. Seriously? You don't know why filmmakers use prime lenses?
.
Click to expand...


I only use primes. You don't know what I am talking about? No, I can see that. I am talking about what the Scarlet was supposed to be and is not. Do you think we will ever honestly see S35 or FF35 in Scarlet? I am talking about having the ability to use quality glass that cost a fraction of what is currently being offered on the market in PL and ENG. I am talking about using a lens that costs $400, not $4000 or $30,000 and finding out that guess what? It's just as sharp, you can pull focus and produces images every bit as good. That is the future for the Indie filmaker. That is the what the DSLR revolution has opened up. It is NOT having to spend another 8-15K on all the proprietary items to kit out a camera whether it is RED ONE or Scarlet and then having to buy another 10-15k in lenses. Ignoring interchangeable lenses from the crossover world of still photography in terms of the targeted Scarlet buyer, represents a singular LACK of vision and has nothing to do with the future. Just try getting a set of primes without an expensive camera package from the rental houses in Europe. Good luck, you can have it next month for one day on a Thursday.

Sorry, the only thing disingenuous is RED's announcement of larger sensors for it's lower end, budget filmmaker and then what?

TOTAL SILENCE.

That is practically the definition of disingenuous.
 
Last edited:
Postmaster said:
An ARRI rep. said in an interview:

"The whole world wide market for high end digital cinema cameras like the Alexa is under 600 units."


Frank
Click to expand...

I would say 150 units is closer to reality. But 40 units on rental houses could probably cover demand, kill the commercial future of the camera and make the whole project a financial failure. The camera will typically be used with rental lenses so the rental houses will be all over it. The >50K euro market (body price) is a very small and very dangerous niche. The ~25K market is at least 50 times larger and things are only getting massively commercial at ~8,000 euro or so. The 25K market is already saturated by Red One, so lets see what all these companies can do for the 8,000 euro point in which many camcorders are already competing:)
 
yoclay said:
I am talking about having the ability to use quality glass that cost a fraction of what is currently being offered on the market in PL and ENG. I am talking about using a lens that costs $400, not $4000 or $30,000 and finding out that guess what? It's just as sharp, you can pull focus and produces images every bit as good. That is the future for the Indie filmaker.
Click to expand...

You will be able to order a Canon or Nikon mount with the Scarlet.
So nothing keeps you from using photo glass with it.

Otis Grapsas said:
I would say 150 units is closer to reality. But 40 units on rental houses could probably cover demand,....
Click to expand...

Exactly what I thought when he said that number.



Frank
 
Red isn't going after the sub-$10000 crowd. Canon unknowingly did with the 5d Mark II. But just the other day I saw on a national commercial spot for a make up commercial they were using 2 Canon 7ds. And this was a super high-budget beauty commercial. So in sense Red should have really thought this one through - because when things can get the job done and do it for less, producers the world over are going to request that camera for the shoot. And people will buy the camera as first a test and then kind of get used to it - including the director and then everyone will want to shoot with the camera they know.

I wish Red stood by their plan and released the 3K $3000 Super35mm sensor Scarlett. I guess in the end they couldn't find a way to do it without taking a huge financial loss and putting their company out of business. And here we are - broke in a bad economy where a $40,000 camera could be obsolete in a year. Who wants to buy into that technology besides the rental houses, which are, one by one, going out of business because everyone is just buying their own sub-10,000 camera and glass and support and getting the job done.
 
Postmaster said:
You will be able to order a Canon or Nikon mount with the Scarlet.
So nothing keeps you from using photo glass with it.
Frank
Click to expand...

:violin:


Do you have any idea of the FOV factor from a Canon/Nikon 135mm lens to 2/3" Scarlet is?

3,6x


That means a standard 50mm lens will equal approx. a 180mm telephoto !!!

Or that a 21mm lens will equal approximately an 75mm FOV on the Scarlet.

Totally impossible.

I don't know about you, but I shoot wider than that on the majority of my films. Good luck trying to find wider 135mm prime lenses to do it.

Canon/Nikon mounts on the Scarlet? Nothing more than lip service at this point as far as I am concerned.
 
Last edited:
@yoclay
If RED made an announcement today and said that they would drop the price of the RED ONE M-X to the price of a 7D. Would you still not be happy with RED because they didn't give you a Nikon/Canon lens mount, batteries, monitor, etc? I'm not trying to attack you. I just think the expectations around here have become little bit high after the DSLR bubble.
 
eddavid said:
Red isn't going after the sub-$10000 crowd.
Click to expand...

The Scarlet 2/3" should end up at about 10,000 euro for a reasonable configuration so there is interest in the low end of the market. The "brain" prices are obviously designed to appeal to those with even lower budget even though they can't afford the complete camera. That was the point of the original 3k for $3k marketing IMHO. Getting the video enthusiasts to consider the camera and start dreaming about it for a couple of years. When you spend so much time discussing, researching, posting, following news, updates, releases etc, you can easily reach deeper into your pocket for 2x or 3x your original budget. The product becomes familiar and you have to have it:)
 
Just read the press release on dpreview about the new QuantumFilm sensor technology. If it really is so good on image quality and low light performance, will make REDs hope to obsolete obsolescence an ironic joke if what they've spent so long perfecting will be seen as the last of an out-going imaging technology by the time it comes out. For bonded feature films this year, originating on 35mm film still seems to be the only way to avoid obsolescence.
 
yoclay said:
I only use primes. You don't know what I am talking about? No, I can see that. I am talking about what the Scarlet was supposed to be and is not. Do you think we will ever honestly see S35 or FF35 in Scarlet? I am talking about having the ability to use quality glass that cost a fraction of what is currently being offered on the market in PL and ENG. I am talking about using a lens that costs $400, not $4000 or $30,000 and finding out that guess what? It's just as sharp, you can pull focus and produces images every bit as good. That is the future for the Indie filmaker. That is the what the DSLR revolution has opened up. It is NOT having to spend another 8-15K on all the proprietary items to kit out a camera whether it is RED ONE or Scarlet and then having to buy another 10-15k in lenses. Ignoring interchangeable lenses from the crossover world of still photography in terms of the targeted Scarlet buyer, represents a singular LACK of vision and has nothing to do with the future. Just try getting a set of primes without an expensive camera package from the rental houses in Europe. Good luck, you can have it next month for one day on a Thursday.

Sorry, the only thing disingenuous is RED's announcement of larger sensors for it's lower end, budget filmmaker and then what?

TOTAL SILENCE.

That is practically the definition of disingenuous.
Click to expand...

Red's 2/3" mini primes will cost $950, how is that "$4000 or $30,000"? What "$4000 or $30,000" lenses are you talking about?
 
RichardVClark said:
@yoclay
If RED made an announcement today and said that they would drop the price of the RED ONE M-X to the price of a 7D. Would you still not be happy with RED because they didn't give you a Nikon/Canon lens mount, batteries, monitor, etc? I'm not trying to attack you. I just think the expectations around here have become little bit high after the DSLR bubble.
Click to expand...


If the RED ONE dropped to the price of a 7D, I would be glad to invest in a Canon mount and all the basics.

Don't get me wrong. I know full well that the scan rate of that camera is 9mn and that it blows away any DSLR in terms of artifacts/moire/clean image. However I see it as occupying a certain niche in terms of it's price point that is even above most Indie film-makers today. Rental yes. Purchase? Maybe not. I think a lot of people's hopes were that RED was going to democratize the image part of the process. Instead I think market forces will push them towards the ARRI market.

The other half of the equation is the glass. The biggest problem most Indie filmmakers have today in my opinion, is not the camera. It's a good set of lenses at their disposal. PL mount lenses are becoming harder to rent, not easier. There is more demand. The rental houses know if they rent out too many sets, they can't rent their packages. So owning your own camera probably means owning your own lenses.

I think the Scarlet + lenses is very well priced actually. However, I don't think most people are willing to drop 15-20K for the whole package when the whole market is moving towards S35 or FF35.

The new Zeiss primes kind of make more sense, for their dual resale value. I am not sure why most film-makers would want to invest 3500 USD (the new compact primes II from Zeiss) for the same lens that they can get for 900 USD. If I can have 4-5 lenses for less than 5000 USD, why would I invest 15-20,000 USD? Further there are many other great lenses of equivalent focal lengths for less than half that (like the C/Y Zeiss around 400 USD or less). You can even get a 35/2,4 Zeiss Flektogon which is easily as sharp as a most PL mount lenses from Zeiss today at equivalent settings for 150 USD! I can take the ball bearing out of the aperture ring for clickless aperture pulls and put a follow focus on them anyway. If I have a stills job I can use it for that too. Reselling them is a piece of cake as well with a much larger market to sell to. Welcome to Indie film-making.

All this to say, that RED has an image problem to deal with if they choose to go further upscale into Hollywood as opposed to the more downscale Indie market. (Let's face it, the RED post workflow is prohibitive for the news gathering world and the parts of the media industry which has got to kick things out quickly). I think ARRI is exploring moving into the RED market because they know that they have a reputation for solid dependable products and because when the fearful professional needs to deliver in the semi-major leagues he/she may not want to take the chance of renting a finicky, albeit sometimes terrific RED.
 
Last edited:
Otis Grapsas said:
The Scarlet 2/3" should end up at about 10,000 euro for a reasonable configuration so there is interest in the low end of the market. The "brain" prices are obviously designed to appeal to those with even lower budget even though they can't afford the complete camera. That was the point of the original 3k for $3k marketing IMHO. Getting the video enthusiasts to consider the camera and start dreaming about it for a couple of years. When you spend so much time discussing, researching, posting, following news, updates, releases etc, you can easily reach deeper into your pocket for 2x or 3x your original budget. The product becomes familiar and you have to have it:)
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100%.

@yoclay
I hear what you are saying. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of people on this board alone that just want a canon xl/pana hpx style/price range camera that has at least an academy sized sensor with a decent codec and interchangeable lenses. Red has made it clear they are not going to produce a camera like that. So we end up back at square one...

Do we buy a 2/3" scarlet and throw a 35mm adapter on the front? I would rather use a DSLR then use a 35mm adapter again.

Do we buy a S35 scarlet and stretch our budgets to get a barebones package? Yes (I am a risk taker) But when will we finally see it and at what price? I have a feeling that Red will wait until everyone has had a chance to upgrade their Red and has had a crack at getting an epic. That way the cost of most components in the camera will have dropped and the market is saturated with Red.

I am going to NAB this year for the first time. I hope someone steps up.
 
Alexa test in Berlin

Alexa test in Berlin

web.jpg


Arri tested the Alexa yesterday in the Berlin hbf, I talked to one of the techicians who told me that they where testing it for Roland Emmerichs new movie Shakespeare. I asked the guy if there was gonna be a lot of VFX involved (tried to make an Emmerich joke) but the guy looked deadly seriuos at me and said: "yes, lots of them"
He just confirmed the already written info but two things caught my attention: 1) when I asked about the fps he told me it was secret. That it kind of depended on the recording device which at the moment it looked really bulky and prototypisch.
2) the retail recording device was also secret but if I'm gonna guess it's gonna be fast, arri-only and come in different speeds for different fps.

Lastly I took a crappy iPhone-foto

(they where using a 150mm standardspeed master prime)
 
There is an article on that written by the producer. They are testing the Alexa and the new Red MX sensor. The article states they are both producing amazing images.

I'll be seeing the ALEXA at an SOC fucntion, cant wait. I have friend who co-owns a new MX REDOne and says its the RED they were promised 8 years ago. Night and day difference from the OG.
 
Gabrobot said:
Red's 2/3" mini primes will cost $950, how is that "$4000 or $30,000"? What "$4000 or $30,000" lenses are you talking about?
Click to expand...

And you can get even more cheaper ones with c-mount and they are probably opticaly very good modern lenses.

Definitely don't forget 2/3" Scarlet with fixed lens which will be ready to shoot out of a box for only $5000 with excellent picture and this camera will cover like 80% of most users needs.
 
The Sarlacc said:
There is an article on that written by the producer. They are testing the Alexa and the new Red MX sensor. The article states they are both producing amazing images.

I'll be seeing the ALEXA at an SOC fucntion, cant wait. I have friend who co-owns a new MX REDOne and says its the RED they were promised 8 years ago. Night and day difference from the OG.
Click to expand...


Yea they are same people like those from above photo - Emmerich Shakespeare flick.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top