ARRI Alexa joins RED to kill celluloid in 2010
- Thread starter Berk
- Start date
And you seriously believe ARRI has a miraculous turn around time? The only difference is in policy on releasing information. Obviously ARRI's been working on Alexa for a long time.
And yeah, Red was just sitting on their hands farting around before they finally decided to release M-X.
But you're still evading the point that Red has already delivered M-X. Epic's kind of irrelevant, since Red One M-X is already more than a match for Alexa.
MARK BARRON
Member
We can all wish and hope to use and ARRI camera let alone own one. I see this as a good thing. Why, because we are not going to be flooded by amateur cam operators and wedding videographers posting their cheese non professional work on Vimeo and Exposure room. Red to me will become this with the scarlet. Remember, they claimed that a soccer mom will be able to make a movie. Sure, why not you may say, but what happens to the industry then. People paying you less and asking for free work because their local appliance store has a new 4k dslr for $2,000. Sure the talent is what counts, but I have experienced this phenomenon before with the music industry. So Red's so called revolution with the scarlet, is still to me a vamped Canon with more pixels and better skew. Great for weddings and soccer moms. Arri is and I hope will remain an exclusive tool for working professionals. We should all embrace this, if not for the sake of the profession. -M-
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
Yeah, make the tools expensive enough (we are happy to pay $30 for an Allen bolt) , so we can keep everyone out of the business.
Thats the attitude, the studios been playing for decades.
Doesn't work anymore, that game is over.
Frank
Thats the attitude, the studios been playing for decades.
Doesn't work anymore, that game is over.
Frank
Yak
Well-known member
Panavision & Sony will be hurt a lot more than Red. ARRI has been around for a long time and were smart enough to develop their own Digital Cine Camera, while Panavision went with a partnership with Sony for their Digital Cine Camera, which means they do not control their future. The ARRI Alexa will compete only on the High end of RED where the ARRI name and reputation will hold some weight. Red's real competition for now seem to be from the DSLRs on the lower end. If the Alexa can capture a large amount of the major Motion Picture market at the same time that the DSLRs are gaining market share of the Indy film makers, then Red might have to rethink their marketing plan.
It is more likely RED will end up in this ARRI camp than the Canon DSLR one. I would be surprised if the Scarlet S35 will even see the light of day. RED just does not have the turnaround capacity to keep up with the advancing lower end of the spectrum. There is no way they would want to kill their larger scale offerings with their smaller ones. It is clear that EPIC is closer to the niche their business model can support.
For me the real question is how does the RED product hold up against the medium to luxury size offerings, starting with this sort of product from ARRI. I think the reality is that RED is revolutionary for it's price point and it's niche, but not for the industry from a technological point of view. It is still a compressed image form, and no, it still does not have the latitude that film does. If this ARRI is indeed uncompressed, then I can see why some would go towards it and why they would be willing to pay a little more, even if it too is not yet equivalent to film either. Additionally, the sometimes problematic proprietary workflow for the RED in post is it's biggest turn-off for a lot of folks. When it comes to bigger budget filmmaking, the camera is the least expensive part of the production.
For me the real question is how does the RED product hold up against the medium to luxury size offerings, starting with this sort of product from ARRI. I think the reality is that RED is revolutionary for it's price point and it's niche, but not for the industry from a technological point of view. It is still a compressed image form, and no, it still does not have the latitude that film does. If this ARRI is indeed uncompressed, then I can see why some would go towards it and why they would be willing to pay a little more, even if it too is not yet equivalent to film either. Additionally, the sometimes problematic proprietary workflow for the RED in post is it's biggest turn-off for a lot of folks. When it comes to bigger budget filmmaking, the camera is the least expensive part of the production.
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yoclay said:
Guys, did you not see this?
http://www.awn.com/blogs/tracking-m...ide-arri-alexa-and-red-mysteriumx-camera-test
Alexa and Red One M-X have already been tested next to each other and Red held their own. They're at a lower price, and already have their product released. How is Red the one in trouble here?
Plus Red already has a bunch of the market with the original Red One. Considering how cheap it is for those owners to upgrade their camera to an Alexa level of performance, it makes even less sense that Red's in any sort of trouble here.
Oh, and what is this about uncompressed? No-one wants to work with uncompressed if there's a decent compression scheme out there (and wavelet compression is a ton better than what most of us are used to). Even the Alexa footage was being compressed to JPEG2000 because it just doesn't make sense to capture uncompressed.
Digital may not have quite reached film in dynamic range, but it's off by only a stop or two at this point. And Alexa and M-X offer the same dynamic range (and M-X was tested on ARRI's own charts)...which is about 13.5 stops.
Also in reply to Yak, I really don't buy the DSLR thing...Red's lowest end camera that's coming out will offer certain notable features that DSLR's can't even come close to. It'll also cost more, and have a smaller sensor. I think those who would consider a DSLR will just go and get the DSLR, while Scarlet will be for those who want the high-end features.
Sure there may be some competition (sort of). But with such a significant price difference, is anyone really going to look at them and not ultimately decide based on whether they want the big sensor or the M-X picture? No one's arbitrarily going to decide to spend more money. And if you're really dedicated to getting super shallow DOF over everything, you'd just get a 5d. And if you really need RAW, resolution and higher dynamic range, then your only option will be Scarlet.
I would argue that if you're really torn between Scarlet and a 5d, you're probably not at the center of who Red is aiming at. It makes sense to compare Red One M-X with Alexa because they're so similar in what they offer. It makes no sense to compare DSLR's with Red's upcoming cameras though because there's a disparity in features.
ilauzirika
Boring Senior Member
just as a side note... MisteriumX sounds like a freak doctor and Alexa his creation.....who names this cameras and sensors? anyway I prefer these kind of names to HMC, 5D, 7D, HVX, F23...... they sound like scientific formulas.....hahaha... Even Foveon sounds better than CCD
It's a guy called Larry and he lives somewhere in Scotland.
GRENCH
Well-known member
Well said! ! !
MARK BARRON
Member
You got it, the game is over. Moving on, maybe Panasonic should help Leica make a video DSLR. It would be pro all the way and a real competition to the rest. But then again, this might be too expensive. Good things don't come cheap and its that way for a reason.
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RichardVClark
Well-known member
I don't understand how people can still doubt the vision of RED. They not only developed a camera, but an unbelievable workflow that will only continue to get better. They are the ONLY company that has a real time 4k raw workflow using the red rocket. It is one of the main advantages of the red camera. It is already the strongest motion raw codec and once the EPIC is released the codec will become even stronger.
adkimery
Veteran
““Suddenly one day some little fat girl in Ohio is going to be the new Mozart… and make a beautiful film with her father’s little camera-corder, and for once this whole professionalism about movies will be destroyed forever and it will become an art form.””
– Francis Ford Coppola
It's dangerous to define yourself by tools that will inevitably become obsolete.
-Andrew
And the Scarlet S35, FF35? What happened to that vision?
Red One, renderering obsolence obsolete? What happened to that vision? Now we have to wait for the Epic?
The price point of serious RED products are going UP, not down. Their target is the ARRI crowd not the other way around.
One of their problems is that their "unbelievable workflow" is buggy and a pain in the you know what. It also has taken 20 build versions before their original camera actually starts to have some stability and now they are moving on to the next.
Any loud noises and their camera drops frames? Just look in American Cinematographer from this previous month (February issue)...
That's not the kind of professional tool I would be looking for at plus 40K or a serious big money project. You can bet I would be looking at ARRI in this case. The problem with RED is that there is nothing in either their products, their workflow or their marketing which appears truly stable. This is their image as a company. Arri's reputation is exactly the opposite.
The original point of RED was accessibility to high quality at a lower price point for the Indie Filmmaker. But with EPIC they are evolving away from that and from us.
Scarlet 2/3 is the best that can do for all of us in the indie category now? Come on !!
What are we suppose to do for lenses? Buy their new proprietary ones or settle for a fixed focal length? What about all those great and inexpensive photography lenses that have opened up to us because of the DSLR revolution ? Now we are supposed to go back to ENG format glass or put a spinning adapter on the fixed one?
That doesn't seem so visionary to me.
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No, you don't need to wait for Epic. Red One M-X is out there right now. Epic'll be better, but M-X is the big jump forward. Epic just refines it. Same sensor.
Again, no. They have never stopped supporting the Red One and the M-X upgrade is certainly proof of that. Their strategy on Red One was admittedly to get it out quickly and refine it through updates. They were pretty up front about it, and it made sense given the pioneering nature of it. Epic is a different design, based on dedicated boards rather than brute force computing in software.
And as far as post goes, you can get a rocket fuel bundle from Scratch for $10,000...that's pretty affordable compared with a Lustre station going for $120,000. There is no other high-end cinema post solution as fast and affordable as Red's while delivering the same quality. ARRI didn't even try, they relied on people using external recorders.
Are you serious? Any camera recording system that records to non-solid state HDDs is prone to this. This is so incredibly disingenuous I really have a hard time believing you're serious...there is nothing remotely unique to Red here, this can happen when using a Sony, Panavision or ARRI camera if you're recording to a disk based hard drive.
Wow, what are you going on about? Seriously? What do you do for lenses? Whatever 16mm lenses or 2/3" lenses are around maybe? (16mm's been around for a while, it's not like there aren't any lenses out there) The 2/3" interchangeable's going to have mounts for standard lens types. Red produces great lenses at a low price, but there's nothing preventing anyone from using whatever lenses they want (even DSLR lenses, though that's going to be less useful on the 2/3").
And I don't even know how to respond to your comment on primes. Seriously? You don't know why filmmakers use prime lenses?
And for the record the fixed lens Scarlet 2/3" sounds awesome to me...the fly-by-wire (including touch screen focusing) sounds extremely useful for single cameraman indie use. It's like the next-gen DVX/HVX.
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
An ARRI rep. said in an interview:
"The whole world wide market for high end digital cinema cameras like the Alexa is under 600 units."
Frank