arguments for hdv?

But gimmicky slow motion? It's entirely real and very useful for many, many shooters (weddings, indie films etc). I think, for most people, slow motion is a very important issue to consider.
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I don't mean offense by this, but in my view, "60p" as a slow motion candidate is entirely a gimmick. It's not that it can't have some useful purposes, but 60->24 or 60->30 is hardly "slow enough" to really consider it effective slo-motion. That's also not to say that I wouldn't exploit it on occasion and appreciate the feature... but I feel that real slow motion has to be considered well over 100 fps. The vast majority of footage that I shoot, I don't aim to temporally re-sample.

wait, what are the specs for DVCPRO HD? 720x1280 or 720x960?
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960x720 (HxV).

-Spiff
 
60 fps or even 50 fps can create some nice slow motion effects. Not that I wouldnt have wanted more. But in many situation it will work just fine.
 
60fps is over 66.66% slower when mapped to 24p. That seems good enough to me! Slower would be nice but the usefulnes of a 50%+ slow motion is valuable in my mind. We're all welcome to our opinions of course and I respect that you don't agree with me. :)
 
JesterJJZ said:
Not when dealing with HDV on MiniDV.
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You can still walk into a shop anywhere in the world...nearly... and buy MiniDV tape stock. If you loose you luggage and P2 cards in the middle of nowhere, you could be stuck. I have been in that situation before when our blank tapestock was lost by baggage handling at the airport. My camera always gets carried on with a toothbrush and spare pair of pants (not trousers, underpants :) ).

Chances are your P2 would stay in the camera, but something could still happen... you might trend on them or something. :laugh:
 
HDV is another tool to tell stories and make images with. From what I can tell, it is a tool with considerable capabilities. Is it the perfect tool? Maybe and maybe not. That totally depends on the project and the artist that will use it.
More capabilities and more choices, I can not think of a better argument than that.
 
mmm said:
Also remember that HDV is far cheaper to use when editing as it takes up 19-25Mbps instead of 40-100Mbps for DVCPROHD...or 1.5Gbps for 4:2:2 uncompressed. So you will be able to spend between 2 and 5 times less on hard drives. With DVCPROHD you also have the expense of backing your footage up after it is deleted from P2, this is built in with HDV
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hmm that could be true, but to really edit HDV, you need a kick ass system, since the CPUs really have to crunch away... so it's not a huge difference.
 
Spiff_2 said:
To be fair, the comparison in 720p is:
HDV:
Y: 1280x720
Cr: 640x360
Cb: 640x360

DVCPRO-HD
Y: 960x720
Cr: 480x720
Cb: 480x720

Per frame, HDV has 460800 chroma pixels, DVCPRO-HD has 691200 chroma pixels.
Or, total HDV has 1382400 pixels, DVCPRO-HD has 1382400 pixels.

So actually, per frame, each image has exactly the same amount of information. HDV has 33% more luma, DVCPRO 33% more chroma.

-Spiff
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Very true Spiff. I pointed this out over on the XL-H1 forum. I think it slipped right by because no-one commented on it. This very reason is what makes the JVC HD-100 so appealing. Their high resolution CCDs (1280x720) as well as terrific motion estimation math in their HDV implementation make a formidable combination of quality to efficiency.

@Kyle_Doris, HDV 720p (at lease JVC's ProHD) is easy to edit in a P4HT PCIexpress computer (talking Liquid 6 here). 1080i is a different story altogether. Editing 1080i really requires PCIexpress and fast dual processors if you're editing with realtime effects. If your NLE is not an RT editor then it doesn't matter.
 
Hey we can look at numbers all we want but the reality is that HDV and DVC pro aren't much different. Both have advantages and disadvantages. In fact outside of this comparison, depending on whose 720p you use you get very different results when editing. ANd sometimes 1080 is actually better than 720. It's not what you get when you record as much as what happens when you edit. Hopefully those that speak here are using it too so can make first hand comparisons. Here is a great site that shows comparisons of codecs. They add more all the time

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/
 
Barry_Green said:
mmm makes a good point about the built-in archive too, but to be fair, it also is a disadvantage (P2 is ready to edit immediately, HDV has to be logged and captured from tape). So that's not a clear-cut advantage, more of a tradeoff (because if you were to archive P2, you'd be spending a comparable amount of time as the HDV shooter will in capturing).
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Are we forgetting a little device called a "Firestore." And can't most HDV camera record to tape and Firestore at the same time? If so I have to say: advantage - HDV.

These three camera all have their place. My problem is if the JVC doesn't get fixed, I'd have to pay $9000 for the Canon. I was in the Mac store and saw the drive I want (a 1TB drive), I could fit a couple of films on this drive in HDV. If I someone wants an HD master they can get it and if someone wants an SD copy they can get it.

But this is what's funny. I would really like a Sony FX1 and a JVC. Why? Because frankly both cameras are more physically pleasing to the eye than the Panasonic. It's like women. You know the ones that or the hottest are probably not the best for you. The JVCs form factor kicks butt and Sony making the smart decision to put the monitor on top like that. That's hot.

I really want to do one film in 1080i and the Sony has the look I'd want, but here's the deal: if I buy the HVX I can shoot 1080i and 720/24p. The JVC is only progressive, the Sony's 24p sucks and the Canon offers 1080i/24f (which I'm not freaking out over because if it works it works), but $9000 is a problem. So here the HVX wins out. Simply more options for the price. And I tend to do a lot of action and I really would have to see how HDV handles that versus knowing true HD won't have a problem with it. When all is said and done I can simply output at SD and burn it to DVDs and then make an HD master.

The thing that keeps me looking at the JVC and Canon the most is the form factor and the space saved but in the end everything I'd want to do I can do with the HVX. I can buy filters to match Sony's color, not to mention 60i on the DVX with the Cinegamma on gives some nice images so if the HVX has the same functions I think I could do a film with an HD video look. The HVX has so many pluses and less minuses versus HDV which has more minuses, the pluses for me are more on the shallow side (the look) except for the space concerns. As for the space and other issues no matter what I'm still going to have to buy some kind of HD monitor, a Firestore, a G5 and a 1 TB harddrive. So the HVX seems to e the winner.

Here's the big question. Will any of my movies ever go to film? If not HDV is the safer bet but that takes us back to the $9000 Canon which actually takes me back to the HVX. I don't see myself buying HDV for $9000 when I can get true HD and a Firestore for less. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

-Nate
 
@Nathyn, with all due respect you're mentally masturbating over cameras that aren't available to the public. I see you live/work in Chicago. Have you been over to Aurora to see the JVC? It's the only camera you can lay your hands on and test. Give Rob Yarosh (800-851-2020) a call and get your hands on a camera. QUICK! :thumbsup:
 
mmm said:
You can still walk into a shop anywhere in the world...nearly... and buy MiniDV tape stock. If you loose you luggage and P2 cards in the middle of nowhere, you could be stuck. I have been in that situation before when our blank tapestock was lost by baggage handling at the airport. My camera always gets carried on with a toothbrush and spare pair of pants (not trousers, underpants :) ).

Chances are your P2 would stay in the camera, but something could still happen... you might trend on them or something. :laugh:
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I was talking about playback. You need an HDV camera or deck to play it back. HDV decks and cameras are far from commonplace.
 
Here come some different input.

If you want as much juice from the cam as possible why not buy the european version of the HVX.

Lets se here what I heard it had

1440*1080 and 1280*720

So same res as HDV plus a lot more chroma.

and 25P at 50mbs DVCPRO HD vs 24P HDV at 19 mbs
and 50i/25P at 100mbs DVCPRO HD vs 50i/25P HDV at 25 mbs

of course this is just speculation until we get confirmation.
 
JesterJJZ said:
I was talking about playback. You need an HDV camera or deck to play it back. HDV decks and cameras are far from commonplace.
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True, the whole HDV deck issue is a disadvantage, especially with the different standards.
 
stephenlnoe said:
@Nathyn, with all due respect you're mentally masturbating over cameras that aren't available to the public.
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But I still know what they're supposed to do.
stephenlnoe said:
I see you live/work in Chicago. Have you been over to Aurora to see the JVC? It's the only camera you can lay your hands on and test. Give Rob Yarosh (800-851-2020) a call and get your hands on a camera. QUICK! :thumbsup:
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Not yet but I'm sure SMS will get one soon enough. I'm in no hurry. I'm fairly sure the HVX will be the one like it or not. Otherwise I'd have to buy the JVC for progressive 720/24p and the Sony for 60i. It just wouldn't make sense when I could just get the HVX. I've been checking out http://www.ag-hvx200.com/ so it's known it will do progress 24p HD and 1080i. That's what I need. If the image is solid I'm game.
brianluce said:
ya nathyn,
forget the looks, unlike women, this is one time where what's inside is what counts.
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I'm so curious about the chicks you date dude.
 
mmm said:
The advantage of tape is a slightly different arguement, but the same applies and it is far easier to argue. I suppose you could say:

The advantages of HDV:
• It fits on a MiniDV tape
• It has higher luma rez than DVCPROHD equivalents
• Requires fair less bandwidth for storage and editing

The advantages of MiniDV tape over P2 and Firestore:
• Dirt cheap to buy
• Built in backup/archiving
• Long recording times
• Very unlikely to have a complete data loss.
• Very fast change over - No offloading and deletion required.
• Easy to pass on to clients and employers - eg, when I hire a second cameraman, I don't need to borrow his P2/Firestore at the end of the day.
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1. hmmm...we just moved office and we carried several big (i mean very big) boxes full of DV and BetaSP tapes. worth.....well i guess $ 3000-4000. so dirt cheap? nope. not in a cameras lifetime
2. backup is a big advantage of tapes, that´s why we have them in boxes still. i give HDV that. but with HD-space coming cheaper every week i guess we will soon have that handled.
3. i know a few people who use firestore with DV and they NEVER want tapes back. once you are used not to log anymore you forget tapes. and the backing up runs over night, so it won´t take my time.
 
Frankly, I'm all for HDV. It just makes sense. If the Canon was the price of the Panasonic my decision would be real hard.

-Nate
 
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