Are these realistic expectations for an AF100 successor?

F

filmguy123

Veteran
Either from Panasonic, or another manufacturing in the coming couple years, for around $5k-$8k? I think this combination in a camera would really just be the pinacle of what I've always wanted a camera (for me) to be:


* S35mm sized sensor or slightly larger
* 35mm mount options for PL lenses and FF canon/Nikon/etc
* Up to 4k recording @ 60fps // Native 1920x1080 HD/2k at 120fps (and perhaps 3K in between at 90fps)
* 13 stops DR in up to 12-bit recording with options for RAW, ProRes 422 and 444 HQ/LQ modes + AVCHD and AVCintra with varying bitrates. Modular design that slides into back/side of camera to choose recording format: record to SSD, CF, SD, and P2 (based on your choice for modular recording). All modules have 2 drive/card bays for hot-swap.
* 4.8in 1920x1080 capacitive, quality multi-touch display for menus and features. Allows large enough monitor to actually use and give accurate HD focusing
* All th AF100 features inlcuding ND filters, XLR inputs, long record times, smart software controls for gamma, settings, etc and DRS/knee; auto settings for run and gun, waveform monitors and zebras etc.


I feel like this would address all the main concerns/problems that filmmakers are really looking for in this price range. We all want a cinema-sized sensor (and s35 is the standard nowadays), using common lenses that are ubiquitious (such as canon/nikon EF mounts and cinema style lenses), and full film resolution would all be important. And as far as the handheld camcorder run-n-gun type stuff, an HD accurate focusing monitor built in with good touch controls would be modern and awesome. Lastly, one of the main gripes is all of these stupid recording formats when all we really want these days is full, uncompressed RAW access or ProRes encoding (or options for AVC if we need long recording times).

Oh yeah, and 13DR like the blackmagic camera is killer. If they can nail that @ $3k I see no reason why Panny and others can't/shouldn't in the next few years with camera successors.


While I am shooting everyday, and not waiting, I just think this combination would finally fully satisfy my discontent with any current camera systems and finally be the camera that makes us stop worrying about gear, lets it fully get out of the way, and just concentrate on the product without feeling like I am comprising so much in terms of recording format, post flexibility, run and gun monitoring abilities, lens choices and freedom, and that s35mm hollywood/commercial look.


What am I missing here? What do you guys want to see?
 
I kind of hope for two cameras. A beefed up MFT mount camera for light weight shooting with Lumix HD lenses that are finally coming out and a S35 for PL cine lenses. Better everything as far as codec and image quality goes. AVC-Intra would be great.
 
Doubtful at the AF100's price point. The camera you're talking about is really more like the Sony FS700 ~ $7K and up. Or a RED Scarlet/EPIC. Also Panasonic's pretty committed to their own codecs like AVCIntra/AVCHD. I've yet to see them release anything with ProRes nor RAW.

Not saying they technically cannot release a camera like the one you describe, just seems fairly unlikely as an 'AF100 Successor,' at least in terms of pricing. That said, the BMD camera you mention seems likely to disrupt the goal posts for price/performance ratio yet again. The days of playing it safe on specs seem over- good news for the consumer.

-Noah
 
True Noah. I like to hope that Panny is a customer driven company. I love AVC for what it is, but to push it at the expense of what is best for the filmmaker would be unfortunate (not to mention likely bad for business if industry trends continue). It'd be nice to see it as a recording option, not a mandate. Regarding the $7K camera, that's true today, but I am talking 2013-2014... plus at a $5-$8k price point.

Erik, not a bad call at all on the two cameras. I can definitely see value in an MFT camera system for live event coverage as well - a deeper DoF can certainly be helpful with that!
 
I'm waiting on the holocam. No lens, 3D laser imaging sensor, variable DOF, cerebral interface, built-in espresso maker, instant wine chiller, and a flat top you can rest your beer on.
 
mcgeedigital said:
That is all well and good, but you won't get all of that for $8k.

No way.
Click to expand...

I think that's what people would have said 5 years ago about a lot of stuff we are seeing for $3-$5k now. Is it ok if I call you out on this thread in a couple years :P


David W. Jones said:
I'm waiting on the holocam. No lens, 3D laser imaging sensor, variable DOF, cerebral interface, built-in espresso maker, instant wine chiller, and a flat top you can rest your beer on.
Click to expand...

haha. I know what you're getting at, hence why I put it in my post in the start. Not waiting on anything, I just think these features/specs would make that solid of a camera where gear no longer feels "in the way" of a creative task so to speak. There will always be something "better" as in more res, frame-rates, speed, WHATEVER... but I always feel like something at the moment is lacking (living with a creative compromise in the camera body/sensor). A platform like that would make me feel like things from that point are "icing on the cake" and it would really leave it up to the other gear and creative process. A camera that finally hits that well rounded "good enough for everything" point... anyone who knows tech knows that the last few years have been an explosion in bringing film standard to digital at a prosumer price point, and I feel those are the main few things lacking. Until then I am happily shooting away ;) Just looking forward to it...
 
Add $10K to your price range if you want this within the next 2 years, or be prepared to wait up to 10 years to buy it at the price range you listed.
 
I would think a successor to the AF100 would not want to be a radical change to the "form factor" of
the camera (i.e. stay in the same general body and be able to leverage accessories
already in-use).

What you're suggesting is an entirely new camera. I agree that Panasonic should get into the 4k s35 game.

If one were trying to succeed the AF100 line, I would stick with an MFT sized sensor, but up the resolution
to 2K or more and greatly expand the latitude.

I would also increase the VFR capabilities and provide SSD support (perhaps as an add-on). I would offer a
higher encoder standard (AVC-Ultra) as AVCHD ain't gonna cut it at 2K.

I would want 10bit.

IMHO, they should be able to offer this at roughly 2 to 2.5k the cost of the BMC camera .. which would put the
AF100 camera at about the same introductory price it debuted with.

I don't expect better monitoring at this price-point . and would expect the need to supplement
both monitoring and audio .. ( let's face it the AF100 was a great sensor trapped in a mediocre
body ) :-)

And I would pay 2 to 2.5x above a DSLR format camera for the video features.

jeff
 
Regarding monitoring, 4.8" smartphones are already cranking pixels/DPI close to 1920x1080 with IPS displays anyway. Really shouldn't seem that hard to get a hi-res multi-touch IPS display like this in the coming years; esp with Sharp's IZGO tech and the rapid improvements in this area.

Regarding recording to formats in ProRes/RAW and to 4k and high FPS, besides the sensor, it's just a matter of processing power, and ARM chips found in the iPad and other technology are improving rapidly and should be quite capable of handling the bandwidth and processing needs here and for cheap. Storage prices are continually dropping for SSDs and other memory types as well, and connections like thunderbolt and USB 3.0 are becoming industry standard opening the door for all sorts of high bandwidth digital add-ons.

In my eyes, that covers everything I listed (screen/monitor/storage/4K resolution/high FPS & raw processing/etc.) without much added cost in a couple years time; the rest of the features the AF100 already has...

Really only leaving the larger s35 sensor, which we are already seeing @ $8K (Sony FS700) with all the AF100 features and that's TODAY. It's got 11.5 stops DR, BMC has 13 (for only $3k; granted with a smaller sensor/resolution though).

It seems to me WELL within reach to hit a sub $8k price point for everything I listed in about 2 years, especially with all the competition in the market and the rapidly improving low-power mobile processors, display tech, connections and storage, etc.

jmarkham - good points on an AF100 successor, and well said. I think that's true, and it'd make sense to see an MFT & S35 camera from Panny @ two price points... perhaps $5k & $8k


LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY: What *specific* technological roadblocks are there to accomplishing this in the price/tech department? I tend to be a tech nerd and follow all these components and parts and breakthroughs pretty closely, and on a parts/price list this seems pretty realistic in 24 months. What am I missing that prohibits this price point, besides the fact that no one else has done it yet?
 
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Cool ideas. I really wish Samsung and Apple made cameras. Unfortunately Panasonic probably doesn't have (or have access to) that kind of technology or creativity. Panasonic, Sony and Canon are just not dynamic companies in the way Apple and Samsung are.
 
If Panasonic gets an AF100A or AF200 or whatever it'd be called on the market I guess they will stick with AVC Ultra and extend the recording as far as the format can take the camera but still use SDXC cards. AVC Ultra is the key and the camera will be built around it and that'll set the limits.
 
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I would like better resolution and zoom for focus though those features can be added aftermarket now. The last thing I want is a touch screen. My experience with my iPhone is that they don't always respond as you like them to, and if I have sweaty hands, gloves on etc. I'm lucky to get it to work at all.
 
Hi,

for the modularity of which you speak, that is not a $5000 camera. It is much more complicated than you think, and tus more expensive. The rest of your suggestions are maybe possible, but do me a favor, and selct three make it sweet and short and post this short list in the other thread. on the same subject.

All the best,

Jan
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
Hi,

for the modularity of which you speak, that is not a $5000 camera. It is much more complicated than you think, and tus more expensive. The rest of your suggestions are maybe possible, but do me a favor, and selct three make it sweet and short and post this short list in the other thread. on the same subject.

All the best,

Jan
Click to expand...
Jan

Is the price point of this camera your looking for input on in the $5K price range? Knowing that would help keep people from going way off in dream land.
 
Erik Naso said:
Jan

Is the price point of this camera your looking for input on in the $5K price range? Knowing that would help keep people from going way off in dream land.
Click to expand...

If a camera is going to succeed the AF100, then in my way of thinking it should be in a similar price reange. If I wanted to add an additional $5000 to the price point we could do more. But to keep the energy focused and I do want the traffic on this discussion to go to the 1st post in the Sticky section, Makes it easier for the Factory guys to find it and read it, and keeping it short ideas, helps in the translation.

All the best,

jan
 
A lot of what people are asking for seems like a much more expensive camera than the AF100 price point. For the next generation all I really want to see is more dynamic range (12 or so stops would be nice), a little sharper image, and a more robust internal codec like an implementation of AVC Ultra at 4:2:2 at 10bit to avoid banding. Keep the codec around 50-100Mbit/sec so, in theory, you could still use cheap media like a fast SD card. I'm just trying to be realistic for the price point. Now that Sony has done it, I think Panasonic will have to follow with a burst high frame rate option as well. I'm fine with the current sensor size for the time being. It's a great compromise between being able to get shallow and deep DOF. Anything else Panasonic wants to throw in is gravy :) If that's something that can be done for $5-7k I think it'll be a winner.
 
1) Keep MFT - everyone else is making bigger chip cameras, why should Panasonic? This could be a niche format like super16 used to be.
2) A good proprietary 5:1 par focal zoom lens designed specifically for the AF100, not a frigging still camera.
3) And yes, increase range.
 
Mac said:
1) Keep MFT - everyone else is making bigger chip cameras, why should Panasonic? This could be a niche format like super16 used to be.
2) A good proprietary 5:1 par focal zoom lens designed specifically for the AF100, not a frigging still camera.
3) And yes, increase range.
Click to expand...

+1

And a crop mode specifically for S16, 2/3", and maybe even 1/2" lenses would be gravy
 
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