Are my ears really bad, or....

[graywolf]

Are my ears really bad or what?

I was checking out what the current preferred clip on mic was, and came upon a shoot out of several.

As I listened, I realized I could tell almost no difference between them. From $100 to $1000, maybe if I was using them I would see a lot of difference in sensitivity and coverage, but I really could not perceive any meaningful difference in sound.

Now, at 73, I admit my ears are pretty much dead above 10K, terrible for a guy who could not stand being in the TV dept of a store because the 15K flyback transformers drove him nuts. But most dialog is below that 10K threshold, and I doubt many are using clip ons to record concerts.

Oh, and I found out the current darling seems to be the DPA 4060, if you were wondering.

 

[Richard Crowley]

I am "only" 5 years behind you, but I agree that the basic "sonic qualities" are not very obvious. As the technology making mass-production small electret (and MEMS) mic capsules improves, there is less performance difference between "budget" examples and the "premium" examples. I think the bigger difference these days is the size and reliability/ruggedness of the mics. And perhaps the "name brand".

 

[Bruce Watson]

But most dialog is below that 10K threshold, and I doubt many are using clip ons to record concerts.

Oh, and I found out the current darling seems to be the DPA 4060, if you were wondering.

Well you might doubt it, but plenty of people record concerts with clip-on mics. Visit Taperssection forum and have a look. Interesting group, that.

In fact, if you search the Gearslutz "Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording" forum in you'll find that quite a few people use DPA 4060s to record classical music, from full orchestras to soloists. They exhibit excellent omni characteristics, and their size/weight make it easier to clean up sight lines for video as well.

That said, the usual "darlings" of the video lavs, like the Sanken COS-11D, Countryman Bx, Trams, etc. don't seem to get much use in recording music -- just the DPA 406x. Probably because most of the lavs have such presence boosts in their response curves (to compensate for being hidden under clothing for narrative work) that they require significant post work when used for music.

 

[Noiz2]

Well the first link is for a "tapers" forum so yes they will be using lavs because if they get caught taping they will get stuff confiscated and be thrown out.
The Gearslutz group is on point though, people doing legal remote recordings.

I'm surprised by the mini mic usage but then I'm not sure why. They have been used for choir overheads a fair amount. And I can see the point on invisibility to the audience, and classical music is rarely the wall of sound that rock is so? There you go.

-----

I'm aways behind both of you but I do remember hating the TV buzz. The other sucky part is that now that we can't hear it, it doesn't exist anymore!

 

[Jim Feeley]

Tapers: Depends on the band... Some, esp in the jam-band genre, are fine with people taping their concerts. And some of those people use really good equipment. Sound Devices, Schoeps, Neumann, etc. For realz... The guys at SD were surprised how many of their 702 and 722 recorders were sold to tapers. Back in the day, I think a bunch used Nakamichi and such (I grew up in the SF Bay Area, wasn't a Deadhead but knew members of the Grateful Dead diaspora) Some of those people have really good ears and aren't like bootleggers of old. But I digress.

Lavs & Music: When I worked at Countryman 30+ years ago, our little mics (precursors to EMWs) were mostly used to record/capture music. Taped just off the concert floor in front of a guitarist's amplifier to eliminate reflections that a higher-placed mic would get. Dropped down the vent of a kick drum when the drummer decided to he wanted two heads & no head hole (sorry, I'm probably getting the drumming terminology wrong). Choirs, cello, choirs. Then Carl's mics moved onto Broadway since the then-common Sennheiser model had a metal housing, IIRC, that would corrode from sweat when placed as a hair mic. Only later (and after my time there) did his mics get traction in film, video, news. Still used a fair amount for live performance, esp for vocalists. But Carl decided not focus on musical instrument mic'ing IIRC because of all those great German mics (this was before DPA got moving in the early 90s...and boy has that company done a nice job), and because he thought he added more value in ENG, Broadway, then headsets, etc...and because those markets are big. So as Scott surmises he built mics with different response curves for those markets (though the flat EMW is fairly Sonotrim-like and is used by some for music). But I digress.

My ears are about 20 years behind Tom's and I still hear a difference between various high-quality lavs. And I think it's more than just wine-snobbery BS. Through a good Lectrosonics or Zaxcom transmitter, the differences carry through (same with, I assume, Wisycom and the higher-end Sennheiser stuff). Tom, what transmitter are you using with your lavs? I find the less-expensive ones are like wood planers that shave off a lot of nuance...

 

[Mitch Gross]

I turned on an old 32" CRT TV the other day and couldn't believe the whine out of that thing. I'd gotten used to it in the day but I forgot just how annoying it was. My dog also perked her head up and I know she can hear way higher than I can. Who knows what secret messages the CIA was inplanting in her doggie brain with those frequencies.

 

[graywolf]

Tom, what transmitter are you using with your lavs? I find the less-expensive ones are like wood planers that shave off a lot of nuance...

Ah, hummm.... I live out in the boonies, so get away with old stuff that would get me arrested in the big city. Samson Micro32, kind of got ripped off by an eBayer that was not completely honest. But, as I said, I am out in the boonies where it interferes with no one, and am a hobbiest. But am really thinking wired 90% of the time. 100% of my video time is about 1% of a pro's time. So, what I have been looking for is a couple of clip mic's that can be used XLR most of the time with an adapter, but still be used as a backup on the radio.

I guess, what I am actually interested in is if the part I can not hear is going to make much difference to others.

 

[Jim Feeley]

No worries. And the boonies probably means less RFI... I'm guessing most other people won't really notice or care about the differences as long as you're getting all you can out of that system... And esp. if you're running a wire, have decent placement and levels. And make a story worth watching and listening to.

 

[Noiz2]

Tapers: Depends on the band... Some, esp in the jam-band genre, are fine with people taping their concerts. And some of those people use really good equipment. Sound Devices, Schoeps, Neumann, etc. For realz... The guys at SD were surprised how many of their 702 and 722 recorders were sold to tapers. Back in the day, I think a bunch used Nakamichi and such (I grew up in the SF Bay Area, wasn't a Deadhead but knew members of the Grateful Dead diaspora) Some of those people have really good ears and aren't like bootleggers of old. But I digress.

Me too. Grew up in Okland and lived in SF for 15 years or so, just a few blocks from where Jerry Garcia grew up..

I have a full set of three Nakamichi mics with all the capsules, and my father worked with John Meyers father. The mics are pretty good but don't use Phantom (designed for these fat AA style batteries that are 8V or something, so you need special spacers for AA batts to work).

I'll admit I haven't looked at tapers sites much in a long time. They used to be all about how to sneak gear in. Mics mounted in glasses or rigged into baseball caps.

 

[combatentropy]

I don't know whether I can discern one lav from another. But after watching this video, I decided I would try to use a full-size mic (like a short shotgun on a fishpole) over a lav whenever I could.

https://vimeo.com/62502765

Further discussion: Why a lavalier instead of a boom on a stand? (2015)

 

[Bruce Watson]

Well the first link is for a "tapers" forum so yes they will be using lavs because if they get caught taping they will get stuff confiscated and be thrown out.

You can dismiss the tapers if you want. But what you've written is at worst only partly true. There are many "taper friendly" bands, and many sell special "tapers' tickets" that let fans in specifically to tape, and allocate them space at FOH for mic stands, etc.

In a world where only the very elite make money selling CDs / MP3s, bands survive on selling tix to concerts. And tapers get used (willingly) to spread the word about what a live concert by the band is actually like. More bands believe that tapers increase ticket sales than decrease them.

That said, in the great recession that resulted from Bush II's Wall Street crisis eight years ago, there were a lot of Schoeps mics coming up for sale from the tapers. Evidence that there's a lot more to their methods than lav mics.

All that said, I'm not a taper. I rarely attend concerts that involve amplification or sound reinforcement, and when I do I go to listen (and I always use my hearing protection to knock it back to a reasonable level), not to monitor my equipment.

 

[Joshua_G]

Are my ears really bad or what?
…
Now, at 73, I admit my ears are pretty much dead above 10K …
…

We are of the same age, and I'm extremely picky about SQ (Sound Quality) in everything - from my living room stereo set to recordings. It probably started way back when I worked as a sound engineer at the Israeli national radio station. Hearing above 10K has very little to do, if anything at all, with assessing SQ. It looks to me like it's mostly about being trained to listen to nuances in sound.

…
As I listened, I realized I could tell almost no difference between them. From $100 to $1000, maybe if I was using them I would see a lot of difference in sensitivity and coverage, but I really could not perceive any meaningful difference in sound.
…

Assuming the mic's pick-up pattern suits the situation, room acoustics and mic placement aren't less important than the mic being used. Depending on the situation, in many cases the mic placement is the major factor impacting the SQ.

Oh, and I found out the current darling seems to be the DPA 4060, if you were wondering.

A mic with excellent SQ.

... Samson Micro32 …
…

The proper way to assess mics' SQ is to use them wired. There are inexpensive Chinese adapters to feed lavs from the amp/recorder phantom power, like this one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TA3F-3pin-M...283603?hash=item35ce4aed53:g:1RUAAOxyTjNSguni . Since it has a mini-XLR connection to the mic, I made an adapter from 3.5mm locking plug (used for Sennheiser) to mini-XLR.

It is recommended not only for evaluating, but also for recording, whenever the situation allows.

…
In fact, if you search the Gearslutz "Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording" forum in you'll find that quite a few people use DPA 4060s to record classical music, from full orchestras to soloists. They exhibit excellent omni characteristics, and their size/weight make it easier to clean up sight lines for video as well.

That said, the usual "darlings" of the video lavs, like the Sanken COS-11D, Countryman Bx, Trams, etc. don't seem to get much use in recording music -- just the DPA 406x. Probably because most of the lavs have such presence boosts in their response curves (to compensate for being hidden under clothing for narrative work) that they require significant post work when used for music.

Indeed, dialog recording for movies and recording live music call for totally different sound-capturing characteristics from mics. Depending on the situation, the DPA 406x's can be a very good choice for both.

 

[graywolf]

If you are hiding it under clothing, the DPA 4071 is the recommended mic.

However, the only microphone I own that cost more than $200 new is the AT4073A, which I bought for the sensitivity not the sound quality. I find that I only need to set my F4 for about -48db to get sounds from the 4073A about the same as I hear them live. Took me awhile to realize the reason I heard cars going by on the road a 1/4 away so loud was I had I he gain turned up too high (chuckle).