Are DSLRs for video dead?

Donald Ong said:
promos, corporates, (occasionally) events...
I might go into weddings in the future, but at the moment, my main ones are the promos/corporates. I'm leaning slightly towards the canon as i do photography too as a side hobby (with my compact or if i can, i'll nab my mate's d7000 for a joyride)

*Btw, just clarifying, I've heard the 5d3 has some bad judder problems when doing slow pans...is that a real issue?
Click to expand...

I've never had any issues with judder on the MKIII and haven't heard anyone else complain about it.

The MKIII is very capable for the kind of work you do but there are a few things to keep in mind like having to post sharpen your footage which wasn't necessary with the MKII. Also you will need a preamp or Rode video mic pro, the onboard preamps are a bit noisy. A lot of semi-pro video camera preamps are noisy too. I have a Juicedlink and Rode mics which I use for narrative work either recording straight to the MKIII or boomed to a Sony PCM-D50.

The 6D doesn't have a headphone jack so there's no way to monitor audio in camera. At this point all the other recently announced cameras appear to have aliasing and moire. The MKIII is the only camera in your price bracket that doesn't suffer from aliasing and moire. I lived with the aliasing and moire on the MKIII for 3 years and I won't be going back. Mosaic engineering is making anti-aliasing filters for DSLRs but they aren't a perfect solution.

A lot of people have thumbed their noses at the MKIII because of its softness but it's been a non issue for me.
 
squig said:
I've never had any issues with judder on the MKIII and haven't heard anyone else complain about it.

The MKIII is very capable for the kind of work you do but there are a few things to keep in mind like having to post sharpen your footage which wasn't necessary with the MKII. Also you will need a preamp or Rode video mic pro, the onboard preamps are a bit noisy. A lot of semi-pro video camera preamps are noisy too. I have a Juicedlink and Rode mics which I use for narrative work either recording straight to the MKIII or boomed to a Sony PCM-D50.

The 6D doesn't have a headphone jack so there's no way to monitor audio in camera. At this point all the other recently announced cameras appear to have aliasing and moire. The MKIII is the only camera in your price bracket that doesn't suffer from aliasing and moire. I lived with the aliasing and moire on the MKIII for 3 years and I won't be going back. Mosaic engineering is making anti-aliasing filters for DSLRs but they aren't a perfect solution.

A lot of people have thumbed their noses at the MKIII because of its softness but it's been a non issue for me.
Click to expand...

Well, the 6D is probably out of the question as it comes out in december...I need the camera in november. But oh well.
Relieved that the judder issue isn't an issue. I know about the sharpening thing. Any other nuggets that i should know about the 5d3? I'm starting to really lean towards it.


nikon_obsessed said:
panasonic gh2 killed markiii, gh3 will kill canon. andrew reid proved it, the first person who spotted 'mosquito noise'
Click to expand...

yet another mind-washed eoshd fanboy. It doesn't take a genius to know that all andrew reid is doing is spreading nonsense and half-truths. He's about as infamous here as philip bloom is respected. Andrew is the biggest scam in the industry. ALL the gh2 does better is sharpness. the mark 3 beats it in EVERYTHING else. And all the gh3 adds is more aliasing, a tad more DR and a better screen. Big deal. Seriously...people need to stop trusting andrew reid . Just search up why he was banned from this forum awhile back,
 
I'm not going to get into the fanboy debate except to say that I could have bought 5 GH2s for the cost of one MKIII. Personally I'm brand agnostic, I have a MKIII, a MKII, a NEX-5N, and a GF1. Plus I had a D90 so that just about covers all the major players. The GH2 hacks have been steadily improving and there's no doubt it produces a nice image but the sensor is old technology now. Magic Lantern have just released an Alpha for the MKII, no codec improvements yet but they're working on it. The ALL-I codec on the MKIII hasn't been very well implemented with it's variable bit-rate but between ALL-I and IPB you can get good results (ALL-I for high detail/fast action IPB for more static lower detail shots). Underexposure is the main culprit for compression artifacts and sensor noise. The MKIII produces a nice image up to 6400 ISO.
 
Donald Ong said:
Wow really? i watched the coverage and it looked like they were using 2/3'' panny and sony ENG cams... where did you read that? that would be fantastic! And was it on 5d3s or 5dmk2s?
Click to expand...

Yes, really. They used 5D3s on special reports and feature packages that they ran throughout their coverage here in the UK. Of course, the live coverage was shot on broadcast cameras.
 
Gary Huff said:
That's quite an opinion there. Care to share the examples that demonstrate that?
Click to expand...
Exactly.....

The way I see it is in broad day light it's no question the GH2 is a superior video camera, has nothing to do with cost. In low light though with high iso, markIII hands down is king. Now I see no reason why you can't have noth. GH2 cost only $700 brand new and a lot less used. GH2 hack is being intercut with Red Epic and Scarlet footage daily, I"m not saying 5d can;t do that but I know for a FACT we are doing it with the GH2.
 
Donald Ong said:
yet another mind-washed eoshd fanboy. It doesn't take a genius to know that all andrew reid is doing is spreading nonsense and half-truths. He's about as infamous here as philip bloom is respected. Andrew is the biggest scam in the industry. ALL the gh2 does better is sharpness. the mark 3 beats it in EVERYTHING else. And all the gh3 adds is more aliasing, a tad more DR and a better screen. Big deal. Seriously...people need to stop trusting andrew reid . Just search up why he was banned from this forum awhile back,
Click to expand...

I get the feeling nikon was being sarcastic.....but yeah am sorry to say your big bold hyperbole is starting to sound very mr reid....
 
Mr Reid is a nice man. He wears blinkers, failing to acknowledge the value of XLR to some, extreme lowlight to others, long roll times to others, efficient codecs to others. The cost on set of controlling DR with expensive lights, whatever.

He knows how to spin a story towards his editorial line.

He is passionate and excitable and will go from one source without checking, or putting an allegation to to the third party, the right to reply

(as is the traditional manner of proper journalism outlined section 2 in the PCC guidlines http://www.pcc.org.uk/cop/practice.html)

He is not IMO malicious and does not make stuff up; he often gets 2+2+X and extrapolates 10

Most bloggers are equally unreliable, at least Mr Reid is not in the pocket of any sponsors and usually pays for his kit.

I have concluded that all blogs are full of half truths or ommissions*, the best way to find kit appropriate to ones needs is to go to a physical store or rental house and try it out.

S

*generally those ommissions and half truths are not driven by ill intent but that 'spec' not being relevant the that blogger and therefore not being on their personal radar
 
Last edited:
Yeah, ok. I did go slightly overboard there. Its just that it infuriates me whenever someone brings up Reid in a serious conversation. He's such a pompous sensationalist and i go into full-on debate mode when i see his name mentioned.

So, sorry for that... Let's return to the original topic now? heh
 
morgan_moore said:
(as is the traditional manner of proper journalism outlined section 2 in the PCC guidlines http://www.pcc.org.uk/cop/practice.html)
Click to expand...
I don't think bloggers fall into the category of proper journalists. There are a few good bloggers in our industry, but only a few. Most are self-interested and have a blog purely for self-promotion or to fund their filmmaking hobby, which is fine until they start claiming they are something they start believing in their own self-importance. Consider the source is my advice...

morgan_moore said:
I have concluded that all blogs are full of half truths or ommissions*, the best way to find kit appropriate to ones needs is to go to a physical store or rental house and try it out.
Click to expand...


Totally agree.
 
Liam Hall said:
I don't think bloggers fall into the category of proper journalists. There are a few good bloggers in our industry, but only a few. Most are self-interested and have a blog purely for self-promotion or to fund their filmmaking hobby, which is fine until they start claiming they are something they start believing in their own self-importance. Consider the source is my advice...



Totally agree.
Click to expand...

Ok guys, back on topic? pretty please with sugar on top? haha

@btw, how's the new LCD on the mark 3? Is it actually possible to focus with it now with the improved 3.2'' 5d3 lcd? Without using the punch in, that is...
 
IMO you cant focus on either screen,

The worst is an interview were you feel you have drifted off and need to come out and go back in

The 3 has a better sceen though

I dont really see how one can focus with any EFV size item unless you have check while rolling which you do have on the EX1, FS100 and maybe canonCxx and now multi area on the FS100, but it doesnt feed to the external monitor :(

S
 
Donald Ong said:
Ah ok. But he seemed quite certain he had IS off? maybe he's wrong...Who knows :)



I really don't get that video...why is he complaining about lack of detail in the background when it is clearly out of focus? And in some shots i can't help but feel that the 5d was deliberately disadvantaged. Alot of the 5d shots looked like missed focus. (maybe its just vimeo, but i can't help but feel that way..or did he just not realise that even at the same f/stop, focus will be much shallower on the full frame 5d?) and in the 600mm shot, it was obvious the 5d was shot in hazy conditions while the BMCC in a clear, sunlit day. It just seems too much like the 5d was deliberately crippled to make the BMCC appear much better than it is...not sure...

Anyway, I've no doubt that the BMCC will resolve more detail with better DR, but i absolutely CANNOT live with its pathetic ergonomics and i don't really want to rig up. Also, once you get the essential accessories for the BMCC, it becomes more like 6,000 - 8,000...not 3,000. I'm looking for the best fully functional camera for under US5,000...the BMCC (once rigged out, which you need to do) is out of the equation.


Wow really? i watched the coverage and it looked like they were using 2/3'' panny and sony ENG cams... where did you read that? that would be fantastic! And was it on 5d3s or 5dmk2s?
Click to expand...

squig said:
I don't know whether that BMCC vs MKIII test was deliberately skewed in favour of the BMCC but there are a couple of points I'll make about it-

-The MKIII has to be post sharpened to bring out the detail in every shot, the BMCC doesn't require post sharpening.
-Even with post sharpening the 5D resolves less detail than the BMCC but the difference won't be as huge as it is in this test.
-800 ASA is not exactly a low light test, they should have pushed the BMCC to it's limit 1600 ASA and perhaps shown the MKIII at 3200 and 6400 ISO too.
-The colour grading looks vastly different.
-The test focussed on where the BMCC is strongest and the MKIII is weakest like wide high contrast landscape shots, it's a no brainer that the BMCC would outclass the MKIII in that test.
-Some controlled lighting skin tone tests would have been more helpful particularly considering the BMCC is geared more towards studio shooting.
-The ProRes BMCC shots didn't appear to have much of an edge on the MKIII in dynamic range and the test was flawed because some of the shots were overexposed.
-The BMCC also had more aliasing and moire than the MKIII.

I think the BMCC would make a great partner for the MKIII but I wouldn't give up my MKIII for the BMCC. If the BMCC had an S35 sensor, better low light ability, 60p, and a removable battery it would be a different story.
Click to expand...

This test was shot by a filmmaker who has been shooting DSLR's since the 5D2 came out, and has been shooting on 5D3 too. All of the shots in the comparison video were shot simultaneously by both cameras mounted in an over/under rig on a single tripod. His personal decision was to shelve his DSLR's in favor of the BMCC for most of his work.

You will get no argument from me about the ergonomics of the BMCC or the aliasing issues. But DSLR ergonomics are no better for video shooting. Other than the 5d3 and the GH2 hacked or GH3, aliasing is far worse on the DSLR's in general. On the 5d3 the aggressive OLPF does infilict loss of resolved detail to compensate for the poor quality Canon's video scaling. The 5d3 is not out of focus on the wides, it is just soft as all of the Canons are for video. They are fine for shallow DOF shots, but not so good for any kind of deep focus compositions with fine detail.

There is absolutely no comparison between raw, or a high quality i-frame codec like Prores 4:2:2 and the 4:2:0 H.264 web quality video codecs of DSLR's and most low end video cams.

DSLR's have established their niche and will remain popular for the the things they do well. But the range of choices is exploding for high quality video production cameras in the low end pro range between about $3k and $10k with far better IQ and practicality for general production use.

As far as I know, BBC does not permit use of DSLR's on their in house productions period, or any other camera with less than 50Mbps 4:2:2 codecs. Use of them under limited conditons for independent productions is decided on a case by case basis.
 
squig said:
The MKIII is very capable for the kind of work you do but there are a few things to keep in mind like having to post sharpen your footage which wasn't necessary with the MKII.
Click to expand...
It's not so much that sharpening wasn't necessary with the 5D2 more like it was not possible without the image degrading. Out of the camera the image looks similar it's just that you are able to sharpen the 5D3 footage which improves the image.
 
morgan_moore said:
IMO you cant focus on either screen,

The worst is an interview were you feel you have drifted off and need to come out and go back in

The 3 has a better sceen though

I dont really see how one can focus with any EFV size item unless you have check while rolling which you do have on the EX1, FS100 and maybe canonCxx and now multi area on the FS100, but it doesnt feed to the external monitor :(

S
Click to expand...

Let me qualify my earlier statement. I use an LCDVF when using the screen. It's not as good as using a Bomb EVF on a RED, but it gets the job done. I've never had any focus issues using it and I've shot with it all over the world in all types of situations. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to rely solely on the LCD screen, I thought that would be obvious obvious given it's small size.
 
Razz16mm said:
Other than the 5d3 and the GH2 hacked or GH3, aliasing is far worse on the DSLR's in general. On the 5d3 the aggressive OLPF does infilict loss of resolved detail to compensate for the poor quality Canon's video scaling. The 5d3 is not out of focus on the wides, it is just soft as all of the Canons are for video.
Click to expand...

5d3 is definitely not so soft as a lot of people are claiming. First of all let's get the myth out that it's an OLPF issue. 5dmkIII has ONE OLPF and that's designed for stills. It will blur stills very, very slightly. There is no second one for video. The OLPF does not do anything to video as the blurring for stills is so low.

Secondly the 5d3 is definitely on par with a lot of 2mp videocams. I feel it is sharper than the appraised Canon HV20 cam. It is sharper than the XF100. It also has wayyy less noise. I regularly shoot with the XF100 and MUCH prefer the 5d3 look to it. Still no one considers the XF100 to be soft? Because it's noisy and full of sharpening artifacts. Why did Andrew Reid claim that the Sony hx9v is "sharp"? It isn't. It's just full of huge sharpening halos and noise.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top