Are adaptors obsolete?

As a new HPX170 user, I was previously debating on waiting for the Canon's new 7D or go with the 170. Even though the 7D can give you great pictures & video, the codec still isn't there yet. I'll stick to DVCPROHD & AVC-INTRA since those are acquisition formats.

And if I may be so bold, the only people creaming their pants over the 7D are cinematographers or people who don't know any better when it comes to an editing workflow.

I'm sorry, but I've seen too many people shoot things on RED and then get stuck in post production because they aren't aware how extreme the post phase is. Same thing goes with the 5D MkII. A friend of mine bought it recently and loves all the video he gets from it, but editing all that footage is another ballgame that he just wasn't ready for.

I agree that the 35mm Adapters will go down in price and I may end up buying a used Redrock M2E when people start selling them, but I don't see that happening for another 2-3 years.
 
May I be so bold as to suggest the ADAPTORS are in a different technology than the rest of the digital industry. Now that I know what's in the LETUS I'm horrified. The red flags are all over the place:

(1) If the ground glass has any damage, scratch or dust, you're in troube.
(2) If any of the three vibrating columns has any problem, you're in trouble.
(3) If any of the glass cylinder has dust or a scratch on it you're in trouble.
(4) If the motor breaks down you're in trouble.

TROUBLE means either sending it in for a 3 weeks maintenance check, o it means opening up the adaptor and risking making even more damage.

If these adaptors were up to modern technology standards, the design would be totally different: Fist of all the prism area would be constructed and sealed in a totally dustfree envonment and impossible to open. Second of all, the ground glass would always be easily replaceable by the consumer and a spare ground glass would be delivered with the adaptor. Third of all, the ground glass would be designed in such as way as to never have uneven backfocus and ground glass focus. Finally, the red light would never come on unless the ground glass was actually working. Better yet, the ground glass would not be spinning or rotating at all but use a non moving electric process.

The adaptors right now are just a very unreliable mechanical home made type contraption atached to a very state of the art camera. At the fist sign of a scarlet type solution these things will be as obsolete as super 8 cameras.

NB: Did I mention nobody will fix a Letus expect Letus in Portland which means if you live outside the US you will have to worry about shipping back and forth internationally for any piece of dust while the production waits. Given how fragile these Letus adaptors are, any serious production needs to get at least 2 adaptors just to have a spare one while the broken one is in maintenance. Also, do not trust that red light. Even if it is on, the adaptor could not be spinning or spinning wrongly. The bottom line if that undertaking a major production with a single Letus may lead to having to rent a spare Letus from time to time and/or having to refilm scenes. Needless to say as soon as a viable non-adaptor solution comes along you will see an adaptor biblical flood on EBAY such as the world has never seen before. The Canon solution is already an alternative as imperfect as it may be. I predict from now on NOBODY will release a new adaptor and prices will drop on the high end adaptors as everybody runs for cover.
 
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I wouldn't say completely obsolete. They will still be used on the 2/3 scarlet for more shallow DOF, as well as cheep small sensor cams which keep improving in quality every year.

Also, the new gen of adapters are a lot better than the old. The SGblade is rock solid and the build quality is what you would expect for its price.
 
jacotte said:
If these adaptors were up to modern technology standards, the design would be totally different: Fist of all the prism area would be constructed and sealed in a totally dustfree envonment and impossible to open.
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They are. All modern adapters are assembled in a sealed space. But the magic of dust particles has a way of beating out even the most careful prevention methods.

jacotte said:
Second of all, the ground glass would always be easily replaceable by the consumer and a spare ground glass would be delivered with the adaptor.
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Some adapters incorporate this design.

jacotte said:
Third of all, the ground glass would be designed in such as way as to never have uneven backfocus and ground glass focus.
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The problem with that is not with the adapter, it's with your camera. If your camera stock lens doesn't allow you to lock focus or you don't tape it down, backfocus issues are camera issues. I don't understand the 2nd part of it.


jacotte said:
Better yet, the ground glass would not be spinning or rotating at all but use a non moving electric process.
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I don't even know what you mean by "non-moving electric process"; if you don't need to move the GG, no electricity is required. One adapter out there does this: the G35. It's a static adapter with a very fine grain structure so that you don't see the grain even when the GG is not moving. Very very difficult to design though which is why it took the G35 years to come out with a model. There's advantages to the spinning and vibrating design.

jacotte said:
The adaptors right now are just a very unreliable mechanical home made type contraption atached to a very state of the art camera. At the fist sign of a scarlet type solution these things will be as obsolete as super 8 cameras.
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You had ONE bad experience with adapters. There are thousands of us out there using them and experiencing no problem. That's hardly the way to pass judgment on adapter as a whole. As to the service issue, it does suck that you don't live anywhere near Letus, but again that's not an adapter problem since it's not the company's fault that they're located far away from you (btw, Letus should just be able to overnight you a unit since I've always received great services from them).

I agree with you, as soon as a sub 10k 35mm sensor camera comes out adapters will be only relics, but that camera is not here yet! Adapters are a useful tool, and they work now. There are compromises certainly but if you're willing to accept them as you would the shortcoming of a GH1 or a 7D, you'll be more than happy.
 
I want to bring this up: We've funded these adapter companies, and by the time these bigger better cameras come out that can switch lenses, the adapter companies will probably be at a point where they can more comfortably mass produce and make these adapters cheaper. At the same time smaller chip camera's with high resolution will be fairly inexpensive. Once we all move up to the new generation of interchangeable lens cameras the guys out there that only have $500 will probably be able to buy a 1/6" hi-def camera, an adapter, and a lens or two for that $500.....then the next step up will probably be around $700-$1000 for a hi-def VDSLR, then it'll be $2000 for a 3k VDSLR, then $4000-5000 for a 4-5k full featured camera.

I'm only making WiLd speculations, but I think if history has shown us anything it's that tech doesn't die easy, but it does tend to get easier to get it into the hands of folks with less money.
 
Jacotte,
I'm sorry you have had such bad luck with your adapter, but having read your posts here for the last few weeks it seems to me that you went into this without having done your homework about what they are and how they work. As a result you you got in trouble.

For example were I shooting an important long term project I would check for dust before shooting, I would know what to do if it appeared and where to have a back-up, would constantly be on the alert for a motor not turning ( which you should be able to see in a monitor immediately), etc.

That may not have been entirely your fault though, because you are right they are not built to the same technical standards as say a camera or most of the professional equipment we use. Maybe there should be a "troubleshooting checklist" on this website for problems that can trip you up.

In the parlance of an older generation they are "Rube Goldbergs"or a bizarre "Kluge" - weird, nearly homemade contraptions that many of us have found to be quite wonderful. But most of us have gone into it realizing they are cheaply made and that's why we can afford them. Otherwise buy a P+S Technic, which actually doesn't produce better images, but its probably more robust as well as lots heavier. Those of us who've been on this forum for a few years have watched these units grow up and watched as these wonderful manufacturers ( who began almost as tinkerers) listened to our complaints and made them more and more professional, but they are what they are.

The 35mm VDSLR's or something like them may well replace the adapters but exactly when is hard to say. The pictures are gorgeous and the technology as jacotte says is simple, reliable and what I love - SMALL. As everyone has pointed out though they are still not quite ready for prime time. But neither were the adapters 2 years ago and in some ways they still aren't. For stuff that will be projected the jury is not clear about how bad the arttifacting is. For anything that requires good audio, good monitoring, and a decent orientable viewfinder they suck. For documentary or corporate B-roll they might be excellant already. It won't be long before those issues are addressed though and the only one left will be compression and we know how fast that moves. So are adapters dead yet - no. Will they be dead in a year - maybe - 2-3 years certainly. Should you sell now? Well, how dead will your 5D be when Canon or a competitor addresses the issues I listed above?
Who here has had a client switch yet? That's the real question. I have one good client thats used the Letus exclusively for 2 years and is engaged in a serious debate . If I had $5 grand to blow I'd buy one tomorrow, but I don't have the dough so like everyone I'm watching the skys and my producers to see when they begin wanting to switch over.

Lenny Levy
 
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I'd like to see a truer merging of SLR and camcorder - basically a camcorder style body, with all the usual features, that uses standard SLR lenses. Since Canon already makes both types of products I'd probably bet on them to do it first. Dunno if anyone's planning it yet, but IMO it would really be a game-changer if they (or perhaps Nikon) did...
 
Ted, That's what I'm expecting also, you just never know what other corporate decisions are involved, as it could cannibalize their current video prouct line. Seems like it would be well worth it though.
Id like to see them give you a choice in format size within the same chip like the 2K /4K choices in the Red. Want more DOF shoot the ABS scan, wnat less shoot full frame.

Lenny
 
is it me or has everyone gone blind....????

i'm finding the more diffused adapers (sgpro/bladeRR2/M2classic/g35) WAY WAY WAY more filmic than these VDSLR cams.

i'm staying away from all the techno spec advatages and disadvatages crap. i'm talking purely about the feeling you get from watching the footage.

anyone else getting this?
 
Barry_Green said:
You mean, like this?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=180711&page=3
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No, I mean like a lensless HPX 170 body with a Nikon mount.

So - conventional side-mount LCD screen, stereo XLR audio mic/line inputs with 16/48 bitrate, component video out, timecode display, waveform monitor/zebras, firewire connectivity, built-in stereo mic and external mic mount, standard remote zoom/iris/focus inputs, etc, etc etc...

Not to mention P2 card format : )
 
jenningsp said:
is it me or has everyone gone blind....????

i'm finding the more diffused adapers (sgpro/bladeRR2/M2classic/g35) WAY WAY WAY more filmic than these VDSLR cams.

i'm staying away from all the techno spec advatages and disadvatages crap. i'm talking purely about the feeling you get from watching the footage.

anyone else getting this?
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I sorta agree, in so far that adapter footage has that soft dreamy film look....but this is an in camera thing. my dream camera would be as sharp as the VDSLR's, have a 35mm sized CCD, have interchangeable lenses in a common mount, or easily adapted to other older mount, and then I'd do my softening in post...I like options, and an adapter doesn't give you the option of the super crisp look....you only get the soft film look.
 
Ted Spencer said:
No, I mean like a lensless HPX 170 body with a Nikon mount.

Not to mention P2 card format : )
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And a 35mm sized sensor...

and a cappuccino maker

oh and george forman grill...I love that grilled lean taste, mmmm.

but seriously I'd love a 35mm sized CCD HPX-170....Give me my dream camera, or give me death!
 
One of the best features of the VDSLR's is their speed.

That camera your dreaming about is coming, the only problem will be how many producers won't bother to hire a shooter anymore because its so cheap and easy to do it themselves. But that's been happening for a long time now.

I don't neccessarily see a Canon 5D as being much of a rental item.
 
Ted Spencer said:
No, I mean like a lensless HPX 170 body with a Nikon mount.

So - conventional side-mount LCD screen, stereo XLR audio mic/line inputs with 16/48 bitrate, component video out, timecode display, waveform monitor/zebras, firewire connectivity, built-in stereo mic and external mic mount, standard remote zoom/iris/focus inputs, etc, etc etc...

Not to mention P2 card format : )
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Did you look at the picture? It's a lensless HPX170 with a m4/3 mount (get a cheap Nikon adapter for Nikon lenses) with a side-mount LCD, stereo XLR audio with mic/line inputs and 16/48 bitrate, comcomponent video out, timecode display, waveform monitor/zebras, built-in stereo mic and external mic mount, standard remote zoom/iris/focus inputs, etc, etc etc...
 
Barry_Green said:
Did you look at the picture? It's a lensless HPX170 with a m4/3 mount (get a cheap Nikon adapter for Nikon lenses) with a side-mount LCD, stereo XLR audio with mic/line inputs and 16/48 bitrate, component video out, timecode display, waveform monitor/zebras, built-in stereo mic and external mic mount, standard remote zoom/iris/focus inputs, etc, etc etc...
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LOL!

No, I didn't see any picture in the thread you linked, so I thought you were referring to the GH-1. Perhaps you could recheck it and I'll be delighted to have a look at what you're describing.
 
Nick Walters said:
I sorta agree, in so far that adapter footage has that soft dreamy film look....but this is an in camera thing. my dream camera would be as sharp as the VDSLR's, have a 35mm sized CCD, have interchangeable lenses in a common mount, or easily adapted to other older mount, and then I'd do my softening in post...I like options, and an adapter doesn't give you the option of the super crisp look....you only get the soft film look.
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i don't think it's a rez/sharpness thing. coz you can see the difference in down sampled web vids where the rez/sharpness would be a non issue...

i think it's more to do with the texture of the image... which cant really be described... it's almost like VDSLR's are basicaly giving the same image as a zoomed in ex1. so it's good HD video at 24fps with shallow DOF.... but as you all know, just zooming in on an ex1 or any other camera for that matter, doesn't give you a filmic texture... it's just good HD video at 24fps with shallow DOF.

BUT the more diffused adapters actualy ad a certain texture to the image. they're not just a shalow DOF adapter, they're a filmic texture adapter aswell.. and it can be seen in wides with large dof.

i don't know..my eyes see the difference.
 
[re: Barry's link to the SLR lens equipped HPX170]

Yeah, that's pretty much the idea, although the added cost of the force field holding the lens out in thin air in front of the camera body might be a factor : )
 
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