Apple the iPhone 12 Pro Max with ProRAW photos, LiDar and Dolby HDR

[ahalpert]

You're proud of your skills and career, I commend you (seriously).

I can never tell when you're being serious, even when you say seriously.

That's a smart idea about the framing adjustment warning. But my larger point was that people who dont know video cant always do the right thing even when you tell them exactly what to do.

And the same goes for camera companies. How come auto exposure can't prioritize the faces in the exposure? How come theres no setting for auto-exposure to lock your exposure once shooting starts so theres no ramping during a clip? I would use it a lot more during run and gun if I could do that

 

[NorBro]

And the same goes for camera companies. How come auto exposure can't prioritize the faces in the exposure? How come theres no setting for auto-exposure to lock your exposure once shooting starts so theres no ramping during a clip? I would use it a lot more during run and gun if I could do that

Because they don't have as much money as Apple or Google and have a different business plan in mind to sell us an endless amount of POS cameras.

 

[ahalpert]

Because they don't have as much money as Apple or Google and have a different business plan in mind to sell us an endless amount of POS cameras.

The reverse principle may limit Apple. I thought to myself - will apple take this tech and put it in a form factor that's more usable as a camera while stripping out the phone part? And I realized that no they won't because it would undermine the concept that their phone is all the camera you need

 

[Jim Feeley]

Run&Gun quotes Ken Rockwell:

...If you have to edit or "fix" your pictures, why did you bother taking them in the first place?

In real photography, pictures aren't broken. All the work happens before the shutter opens: you have to pay attention before you shoot — not after. To create worthwhile photos, shooting is the last thing we do. In real photography, the mantra is See, Feel, Shoot — or as one vulgar guy wrote: F.A.R.T.: Feel, Ask, Refine, Shoot. When the shutter closes, you're done

There's more, but that's the crux. Rockwell's provocative, I guess, but also wrong. Or at least not universally correct. Remember Ansel Adams' instructional photography books? There were three of them and sure seems like Adams didn't think "shooting is the last thing we do."

The Camera
https://www.hachette.com.au/ansel-adams/new-photo-series-1-camera

The Negative
https://www.hachette.com.au/ansel-a...negative-the-ansel-adams-photography-series-2

The Print
"Shows how the making of a fine print is the culmination of the photographic process."
https://www.hachette.com.au/ansel-adams/new-photo-series-3-print


But maybe Rockwell doesn't consider Adams a practitioner of "real photography." So closer, perhaps, to what Rockwell's thinking, photographers such as Salgado, Mary Ellen Mark, Winograd, and my photojournalist friends all spend/spent time working on their images after the shutter closed. I guess getting it all in camera can be a goal for certain types of photographers... But it's not for a bunch of others. So maybe I'm just missing something here.


But back to smartphones: a friend recently used OpenReel on a high-profile project. He was the editor, not the producer, btw. Basically, OpenReel lets producers set up a video-conference call with talent/subject through a smartphone or webcam. But the producer/tech can remotely control the talent's device...setting exposure, audio, and some other stuff. That's interesting feature #1. #2 is that during the video call, the talent's device is recording a higher-quality video internally. Then after the end of the video call, the talent's device automatically transfers that file to the producer.... The talent doesn't need to futz with delivery. There's more and I need to dig in more.... And they don't publicize pricing (it's a "contact us" deal...so it's not cheap). But I'm thinking of finding out more about it; it could be genuinely useful... Especially if we ship out a good smartphone (ie- iPhone 12), small tripod, mic, and light. I'm just hoping the service doesn't cost like $500/hr... Though even then, as long as someone else is paying...
https://www.openreel.com

I have an iPhone 11...I'm impressed by the quality of the stills and video I get with it. I'll probably order the 12 this week...I'm not just GASing, btw... Before the 11, I was using an iPhone 4S...but I want 5G...esp if something like OpenReel can work with 5G, then perhaps we can get out of people's home offices... Well, you all can see what I'm thinking, and probably share the mix of interest and concern.

 

[rob norton]

Because they don't have as much money as Apple or Google and have a different business plan in mind to sell us an endless amount of POS cameras.

Apple still makes the $40K Mac Pro, while the phones are capable.

Maybe they'll come out with the mac pro equivalent of a capture device, making a bigger gap in capabilities than current iphone vs. gh5. As in, latest iphone, latest larger apple product not yet invented.

I think a lot of it gets automated but a new field requiring specialized technicians can arise too.

This thread is all over the place! It needs to be divided into next 5 years, 5-10 years, 20+ years.

 

[NorBro]

The reverse principle may limit Apple. I thought to myself - will apple take this tech and put it in a form factor that's more usable as a camera while stripping out the phone part? And I realized that no they won't because it would undermine the concept that their phone is all the camera you need

They are not interested in making ARRI money, they are interested in making Apple money.

The 100 million units by 2025 phone money.

 

[NorBro]

Apple still makes the $40K Mac Pro, while the phones are capable.

Maybe they'll come out with the mac pro equivalent of a capture device, making a bigger gap in capabilities than current iphone vs. gh5. As in, latest iphone, latest larger apple product not yet invented.

I think a lot of it gets automated but a new field requiring specialized technicians can arise too.

This thread is all over the place! It needs to be divided into next 5 years, 5-10 years, 20+ years.

That's just a hobby for them like Canon making cinema cameras.

Apple's post will be in the iPad and whatever that develops into (probably a 27" inch screen just floating in the air), which destroyed a $15K Mac Pro handling R5's H.265 (because the computer's hardware couldn't).

 

[ahalpert]

But maybe Rockwell doesn't consider Adams a practitioner of "real photography."

Adams also said you shouldn't take the picture until you know exactly what you'll do during development.

What I predict is that we will lose some of our gear fees because we may be asked more often to use cheap equipment or client equipment. Some will lose all the fees. others, half. On the high end, I dunno.

And we will see downward pressure on the rates because we will need to compete on some work with unskilled labor. which means you will have to lower your rate to get those jobs. and you may be willing to take lower rates in general if you're working less.

In short, we will probably get squeezed

 

[ahalpert]

They are not interested in making ARRI money, they are interested in making Apple money.

The 100 million units by 2025 phone money.

Sure but that leaves the door open for pros like us to use specialized equipment. Look at how people kvetch about mirrorless camera ergonomics and ports for shooting video... we are a small market and people hire us when they need us.

 

[NorBro]

No sures, buts, or maybes.

We're ants, bud...won't get squeezed; we will get stepped on.

Days are numbered (not literally...more like years, decades for some specialties).

 

[ahalpert]

This thread is all over the place! It needs to be divided into next 5 years, 5-10 years, 20+ years.

True, but it's so hard to predict the time scales. Some changes have happened so fast. and yet, at the same time - Moore's Law governing the increase in processing speed seems to no longer apply as the miniaturization of processors possibly reaches a natural limit. Will the acceleration of computing speed continue apace? And personally, I've been surprised by how much cloud AI services are charging. Maybe those rates will come down but it suggests that AI magic is still costly

 

[Run&Gun]

Run&Gun quotes Ken Rockwell:



There's more, but that's the crux. Rockwell's provocative, I guess, but also wrong. Or at least not universally correct. Remember Ansel Adams' instructional photography books? There were three of them and sure seems like Adams didn't think "shooting is the last thing we do."

The Camera
https://www.hachette.com.au/ansel-adams/new-photo-series-1-camera

The Negative
https://www.hachette.com.au/ansel-a...negative-the-ansel-adams-photography-series-2

The Print
"Shows how the making of a fine print is the culmination of the photographic process."
https://www.hachette.com.au/ansel-adams/new-photo-series-3-print


But maybe Rockwell doesn't consider Adams a practitioner of "real photography." So closer, perhaps, to what Rockwell's thinking, photographers such as Salgado, Mary Ellen Mark, Winograd, and my photojournalist friends all spend/spent time working on their images after the shutter closed. I guess getting it all in camera can be a goal for certain types of photographers... But it's not for a bunch of others. So maybe I'm just missing something here.


But back to smartphones: a friend recently used OpenReel on a high-profile project. He was the editor, not the producer, btw. Basically, OpenReel lets producers set up a video-conference call with talent/subject through a smartphone or webcam. But the producer/tech can remotely control the talent's device...setting exposure, audio, and some other stuff. That's interesting feature #1. #2 is that during the video call, the talent's device is recording a higher-quality video internally. Then after the end of the video call, the talent's device automatically transfers that file to the producer.... The talent doesn't need to futz with delivery. There's more and I need to dig in more.... And they don't publicize pricing (it's a "contact us" deal...so it's not cheap). But I'm thinking of finding out more about it; it could be genuinely useful... Especially if we ship out a good smartphone (ie- iPhone 12), small tripod, mic, and light. I'm just hoping the service doesn't cost like $500/hr... Though even then, as long as someone else is paying...
https://www.openreel.com

I have an iPhone 11...I'm impressed by the quality of the stills and video I get with it. I'll probably order the 12 this week...I'm not just GASing, btw... Before the 11, I was using an iPhone 4S...but I want 5G...esp if something like OpenReel can work with 5G, then perhaps we can get out of people's home offices... Well, you all can see what I'm thinking, and probably share the mix of interest and concern.

You have to take him with a grain of salt and not take everything he says completely literally. I interpret what he says to mean to take more care when you shoot and not completely rely on or think you can “fix it” all in post. Generally speaking, in my opinion, post should be to eek out that last little bit that wasn’t possible during capture or make those little tweaks that refine it and make it that much better. Not to fix a 5-stop overexposure on a face and WB that’s not even remotely close to correct.

And Ansel and those guys had a plan going in. KR is referring to people that just spray and pray and try to get something out of it after the fact.

 

[NorBro]

You have to take him with a grain of salt and not take everything he says completely literally. I interpret what he says to mean to take more care when you shoot and not completely rely on or think you can “fix it” all in post. Generally speaking, in my opinion, post should be to eek out that last little bit that wasn’t possible during capture or make those little tweaks that refine it and make it that much better. Not to fix a 5-stop overexposure on a face and WB that’s not even remotely close to correct.

The thing is (and we're just chatting)...why do we have to use and/or continue to develop standards around inferior hardware in the first place?

Our eyes don't need correction (DR).

Why do we have to use these boxes that struggle in certain conditions and abide by their rules and these general video production tips and tricks for these little engines that could...?

Get a few companies that are worth a couple of trillion dollars and create better technology.

 

[rob norton]

True, but it's so hard to predict the time scales. Some changes have happened so fast. and yet, at the same time - Moore's Law governing the increase in processing speed seems to no longer apply as the miniaturization of processors possibly reaches a natural limit. Will the acceleration of computing speed continue apace? And personally, I've been surprised by how much cloud AI services are charging. Maybe those rates will come down but it suggests that AI magic is still costly

I'm not too worried for now...

I feel like there are too many factors at play to know what will happen and think a new high end will still emerge.

Also for a documentary it's not just about robots being capable of capturing a feature. The subjects still need to agree. I would never participate in a documentary with a bunch of robots following me. Some people of course wouldn't mind but my point is there can be unpredictable hurdles too.

Society could ban all these robots flying around as well because of how annoying it is just to capture all of these terrible documentaries.

 

[NorBro]

Robot Norton...I like the sound of that. lol

 

[Jim Feeley]

Adams also said you shouldn't take the picture until you know exactly what you'll do during development.

Developing the negative, and especially making a print, wasn't just automatic. There's another quote attributed to him that I remember going something like, "The negative is like a musical score, and a print is like a performance of that score." And like any musical performance, there are some variations in different prints Adams made from the same negative.

Hell, even after Adams made and framed his prints, he wasn't done. Dig this: When I was a kid, a doctor taught a class at our high school. His practice bought six or so original prints from Adams. Adams brought the framed prints to the doctor's office in Palo Alto, carried them up a couple flights of stairs (because he didn't like elevators), and decided where they would be hung... Yes: part of the deal was that Adams would determine the right place for each picture. This was the late 1970s so Adams was also in his late 70s.

 

[Run&Gun]

The thing is (and we're just chatting)...why do we have to use and/or continue to develop standards around inferior hardware in the first place?

Our eyes don't need correction (DR).

Why do we have to use these boxes that struggle in certain conditions and abide by their rules and these general video production tips and tricks for these little engines that could...?

Get a few companies that are worth a couple of trillion dollars and create better technology.

I may have mentioned this a few pages back, that’s what’s getting scary about the iPhone. It balancing some of these shots out that we can’t with cameras that cost 30x-100x as much. Of course, we don’t always want that...

Like so many other things in life, these advancements are a double edged sword.

 

[ahalpert]

I'm not too worried for now...

I feel like there are too many factors at play to know what will happen and think a new high end will still emerge.

Also for a documentary it's not just about robots being capable of capturing a feature. The subjects still need to agree. I would never participate in a documentary with a bunch of robots following me. Some people of course wouldn't mind but my point is there can be unpredictable hurdles too.

Society could ban all these robots flying around as well because of how annoying it is just to capture all of these terrible documentaries.

The other thing about documentary shooting is you need to be running around and getting in the right places at the right times, dancing with your subject matter. You need to pick your angles- high, low, through the mirror, the glass, profile, OTS. Theres a lot of stuff that cant be fixed in post and cant be done following a one-page cheat sheet from the company that sent you the iPhone kit.

 

[NorBro]

I may have mentioned this a few pages back, that’s what’s getting scary about the iPhone. It balancing some of these shots out that we can’t with cameras that cost 30x-100x as much. Of course, we don’t always want that...

Like so many other things in life, these advancements are a double edged sword.

For sure...and as much as I can't wait to see what they do with anything and everything, the video shallow DOF still has to come out on the phones nicely otherwise I would never use one. So once they have that going inside the phone or I can use FCP X to adjust it, I'm in.

 

[ahalpert]

Developing the negative, and especially making a print, wasn't just automatic. There's another quote attributed to him that I remember going something like, "The negative is like a musical score, and a print is like a performance of that score." And like any musical performance, there are some variations in different prints Adams made from the same negative.

Hell, even after Adams made and framed his prints, he wasn't done. Dig this: When I was a kid, a doctor taught a class at our high school. His practice bought six or so original prints from Adams. Adams brought the framed prints to the doctor's office in Palo Alto, carried them up a couple flights of stairs (because he didn't like elevators), and decided where they would be hung... Yes: part of the deal was that Adams would determine the right place for each picture. This was the late 1970s so Adams was also in his late 70s.

That ansel Adams story is awesome.

I mean, part of this conversation hinges on whether the customer wants the video to look great or just adequate. and there are a lot of use cases where adequate is all that's required. But maybe they want it to look better than that.

To look at it another way - not everyone will be Kubrick or Chivo or insert-idol-here because they have a superphone. They still need to think about where they're gonna point the thing, what they're trying to say, and the FEELING they're trying to evoke, as run&gun mentioned.

I used to AC for a DP who went to AFI and he joked that his first year there was spent just talking about their feelings. I'm assuming he meant their feelings that were generated by imagery