Apple has indicated that FCP 7 is compatible with Lion and that FCP 7 can coexist with FCP X.
Is there some reason why a company cannot do the minor edits for legacy projects in FCP 7?
Is that a pretty simple solution to legacy projects?
Apple responds with an FCPX FAQ
- Thread starter Mickey G
- Start date
Apple has indicated that FCP 7 is compatible with Lion and that FCP 7 can coexist with FCP X.
Is there some reason why a company cannot do the minor edits for legacy projects in FCP 7?
Is that a pretty simple solution to legacy projects?
filmguy123
Veteran
A few thoughts:
1.) I appreciate this response from Apple. However, I would like to see a more "personal" response if that makes sense: a statement of intentions or direction. I believe Apple has an ethical responsibility to simply communicate with it's user who have invested large amounts of money into their MacPro hardware specifically for the intent of running their Final Cut software. I would like them to address the conclusion of the "shake" article: does Apple care about the pro market at the highest end? What are their plans? etc. etc. They owe honesty to their customers who have invested more than any single consumer. It is wrong and unfair to make their loyal, professional customers who have spent absurd amounts of money on Apple hardware/software simply "guess" or "read the writing on the wall." I expect professionalism out of a company of Apple's stature and that includes crystal clear communication with it's loyal users who rely on them for their livelihood.
2.) I have zero problems if Apple's intent is to provide an incredible engine and let 3rd parties trick out the car in a modular fashion. They just need to be crystal clear in their approach and reasoning. But this is actually a very good way of doing things. If specialized groups have need for tape import, EDLs and OMFs, etc. there's no reason why this couldn't/shouldn't be handled by dedicated companies whose entire purpose revolves around their specialized plugins. It will make the features better and it will allow users to build up their edit system much like building a RED camera. I'm all about modular design/features. Regarding the higher price of buying all the plugins, I have a feeling we will see prices drop on these plug-ins due to the App Store effect. Of course that's mere speculation, but if Automatic Duck wants to appeal to more than just 1,000 customers (which I think they will), I could them pricing lower. I can also see competing developers coming up with cheaper solutions that will cause prices to dip down.
3.) I think project import from FCP7 will come indirectly from XML support. Isn't XML how you import your projects in Adobe Premiere anyway? I think you will use XML to import your FCP7 edits and have some work to do in terms of straightening everything out, but it should work.
4.) The truth is, a lot of my initial negative reaction revolved around things that I didn't understand. I think if everyone knew what they knew RIGHT NOW from Day 1 regarding XML coming, 3rd party support coming soon for specialized features, FCP 7 compatible with Lion, etc. A lot of the hate would be tempered down. If everyone knew how to use the "p" tool to disable ripple and how to manage events/projects better from Day 1, a lot of the disdain would be toned down. I think some of that anger is still carrying over and blowing out of proportion things that are not as big of a deal as we thought they were a week ago. I'm not trying to make light of it for anyone (myself included) as much as I am saying let's STOP and RE-EXAMINE, and bring our emotions into check and be logical.
Oh, and for people who say running FCP7/FCP X for different projects is no big deal, please stop. You honestly don't understand what we are talking about. I am a "1 man show" and this is a problem even for me. Yes it is workable, but what you miss are a few key things: (1) FCP7 is very slow compared to FCP X and lacks no filters/effects. This means my $12,000 MacPro gets used to about 15% of it's potential on these legacy projects, and I cannot utilize newer more modern effects/techniques (some of which are quite cool) when I work with these projects ... (2) These "legacy" projects don't mean I am going back to tweak something 5 years old. For example, I work for one company where I do all of their promos and training. I have shot years of footage that is compiled into 20+ sequences/edits, 30+ hours of source footage all marked in/out, etc. I make changes and updates and new pieces based on this on a monthly basis. This is an ongoing project. (3) working with 2 totally different editing paradigms at the same time is a pain, as it forces you to remember two ways of working/two sets of hot keys and is simply just less efficient.
So do I want to spend the next 3-4 years working out of FCP7 for this company until I am eventually completely (if ever) done with them? On old, unsupported, very slow software? If I have to transition these legacy projects to Premiere, why not switch everything over to Premiere? This does need to be addressed (and I believe it will). I'd be happy to spend 1-2 days of work "fixing" the problems I had importing my FCP 7 project by updating effects, clip connections, etc. manually. So I am hoping for a 3rd party XML import from FCP7, and am actually very confident one will be here by the end of the year based on user demand.
If FCP X is the "engine" on which all my modular additions/plugins will run, I am pretty thrilled with the engine. But I am eyeing Adobe to see what they do with Premiere CS6. I would like to hear from Apple: my main concern is that the conclusion of the shake article, about them not caring about my demographic, is true. I would like to stay with Apple but I need them to honestly communicate.
1.) I appreciate this response from Apple. However, I would like to see a more "personal" response if that makes sense: a statement of intentions or direction. I believe Apple has an ethical responsibility to simply communicate with it's user who have invested large amounts of money into their MacPro hardware specifically for the intent of running their Final Cut software. I would like them to address the conclusion of the "shake" article: does Apple care about the pro market at the highest end? What are their plans? etc. etc. They owe honesty to their customers who have invested more than any single consumer. It is wrong and unfair to make their loyal, professional customers who have spent absurd amounts of money on Apple hardware/software simply "guess" or "read the writing on the wall." I expect professionalism out of a company of Apple's stature and that includes crystal clear communication with it's loyal users who rely on them for their livelihood.
2.) I have zero problems if Apple's intent is to provide an incredible engine and let 3rd parties trick out the car in a modular fashion. They just need to be crystal clear in their approach and reasoning. But this is actually a very good way of doing things. If specialized groups have need for tape import, EDLs and OMFs, etc. there's no reason why this couldn't/shouldn't be handled by dedicated companies whose entire purpose revolves around their specialized plugins. It will make the features better and it will allow users to build up their edit system much like building a RED camera. I'm all about modular design/features. Regarding the higher price of buying all the plugins, I have a feeling we will see prices drop on these plug-ins due to the App Store effect. Of course that's mere speculation, but if Automatic Duck wants to appeal to more than just 1,000 customers (which I think they will), I could them pricing lower. I can also see competing developers coming up with cheaper solutions that will cause prices to dip down.
3.) I think project import from FCP7 will come indirectly from XML support. Isn't XML how you import your projects in Adobe Premiere anyway? I think you will use XML to import your FCP7 edits and have some work to do in terms of straightening everything out, but it should work.
4.) The truth is, a lot of my initial negative reaction revolved around things that I didn't understand. I think if everyone knew what they knew RIGHT NOW from Day 1 regarding XML coming, 3rd party support coming soon for specialized features, FCP 7 compatible with Lion, etc. A lot of the hate would be tempered down. If everyone knew how to use the "p" tool to disable ripple and how to manage events/projects better from Day 1, a lot of the disdain would be toned down. I think some of that anger is still carrying over and blowing out of proportion things that are not as big of a deal as we thought they were a week ago. I'm not trying to make light of it for anyone (myself included) as much as I am saying let's STOP and RE-EXAMINE, and bring our emotions into check and be logical.
Oh, and for people who say running FCP7/FCP X for different projects is no big deal, please stop. You honestly don't understand what we are talking about. I am a "1 man show" and this is a problem even for me. Yes it is workable, but what you miss are a few key things: (1) FCP7 is very slow compared to FCP X and lacks no filters/effects. This means my $12,000 MacPro gets used to about 15% of it's potential on these legacy projects, and I cannot utilize newer more modern effects/techniques (some of which are quite cool) when I work with these projects ... (2) These "legacy" projects don't mean I am going back to tweak something 5 years old. For example, I work for one company where I do all of their promos and training. I have shot years of footage that is compiled into 20+ sequences/edits, 30+ hours of source footage all marked in/out, etc. I make changes and updates and new pieces based on this on a monthly basis. This is an ongoing project. (3) working with 2 totally different editing paradigms at the same time is a pain, as it forces you to remember two ways of working/two sets of hot keys and is simply just less efficient.
So do I want to spend the next 3-4 years working out of FCP7 for this company until I am eventually completely (if ever) done with them? On old, unsupported, very slow software? If I have to transition these legacy projects to Premiere, why not switch everything over to Premiere? This does need to be addressed (and I believe it will). I'd be happy to spend 1-2 days of work "fixing" the problems I had importing my FCP 7 project by updating effects, clip connections, etc. manually. So I am hoping for a 3rd party XML import from FCP7, and am actually very confident one will be here by the end of the year based on user demand.
If FCP X is the "engine" on which all my modular additions/plugins will run, I am pretty thrilled with the engine. But I am eyeing Adobe to see what they do with Premiere CS6. I would like to hear from Apple: my main concern is that the conclusion of the shake article, about them not caring about my demographic, is true. I would like to stay with Apple but I need them to honestly communicate.
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Every PRO user, BEFORE does anyhting critical, like changing an OS version, upgrade to a totally new program as FCPX HAS to be more carefull !!!
I am a PRO user, and the first thing i did , i downloaded the manual , saw many paid tutorials , read carefully the specs, and then downloaded and use the program.
So simple.... if all those PRO (so called) users ,did the same , there would be no problem at all.
As Apple said , FCPX is the first of a new generation of programs... and there will be many problems.
Apple said that you can (and have to) use ypur FCP 7 for a long time, UNTIL FCPX is ready for YOUR needs (if ever) .
They could have been more specific from the beginning , YES, but the main responsibillity is yours .... you are not a child , you are a PRO !
I am a PRO user, and the first thing i did , i downloaded the manual , saw many paid tutorials , read carefully the specs, and then downloaded and use the program.
So simple.... if all those PRO (so called) users ,did the same , there would be no problem at all.
As Apple said , FCPX is the first of a new generation of programs... and there will be many problems.
Apple said that you can (and have to) use ypur FCP 7 for a long time, UNTIL FCPX is ready for YOUR needs (if ever) .
They could have been more specific from the beginning , YES, but the main responsibillity is yours .... you are not a child , you are a PRO !
I'm sorry but how can one be "paranoid" about what Apple says and what the truth of the matter is when they completely spun FCPX like they did?
filmguy123
Veteran
Agreed; just because it runs doesn't mean it installs. If Lion does not support Rosetta and FCP7 installer runs via Rosetta, will Apple update the FCP7 installer? This seems unlikely since they have EOL'ed and pulled all sales/support of the program (even pulled any mention of it!) from their website.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Patience... this is from a company that frequently uses a smug, 'we know what's good for you' attitude in its product offerings. This is a company that will rip off a 3rd-party 'idea', implement it internally, and leave the 3rd party developer in the cold. An occasional 'acquisition' not withstanding'.
One wonders what 'industry' professionals they used for their concept development for 'the next generation NLE'...
I waited for Final Cut Express to 'evolve'... as it is I think I was correct in jumping ship for Adobe.
alpi69
Veteran
Well I had Liquid and then Edius. Both were superior editors to FCP. What made FCP6 and 7 so great was the studio.....Motion, Color and Soundtrack. But the editor sucked. FCP7 is THE WORST.
Anyway, where I wanted to go: I still have Liquid and Edius and a dedicated quadcore Windows-PC-Server for these old projects that need updating. So what. I have a few thousand euros standiong around for two calls a year. What a waste. With FCP7 project I can at least open them on the same machine as FCP-X. So all of you jumping ship now, be aware you need FCP7 around anyway. If you go Premiere or not. And there comes the day when maybe Premiere 8 doesn´t open CS5 files.
The response in the mediaworld is crazy. Apple made one BIG mistake. They should have called this "New Editor" version 1.0, not FCP 10.0. Because if you all took it for what it is...a brand new pice of software.....you couldn´t whine like you do.
I have finished 2 projects. Both with XDCamHD422, DSLR, goPros etc mixed in 1080p. I didn´t need to output 8 audio-tracks, so i was save there. Everything else was fine. Output to ProRes422, open that in FCP7 and voila.....HD-SDI output is there.
No it is far from finished, but it is not unworkable either. it is definitely easier to edit with than FCP7.
Anyway, where I wanted to go: I still have Liquid and Edius and a dedicated quadcore Windows-PC-Server for these old projects that need updating. So what. I have a few thousand euros standiong around for two calls a year. What a waste. With FCP7 project I can at least open them on the same machine as FCP-X. So all of you jumping ship now, be aware you need FCP7 around anyway. If you go Premiere or not. And there comes the day when maybe Premiere 8 doesn´t open CS5 files.
The response in the mediaworld is crazy. Apple made one BIG mistake. They should have called this "New Editor" version 1.0, not FCP 10.0. Because if you all took it for what it is...a brand new pice of software.....you couldn´t whine like you do.
I have finished 2 projects. Both with XDCamHD422, DSLR, goPros etc mixed in 1080p. I didn´t need to output 8 audio-tracks, so i was save there. Everything else was fine. Output to ProRes422, open that in FCP7 and voila.....HD-SDI output is there.
No it is far from finished, but it is not unworkable either. it is definitely easier to edit with than FCP7.
Yeah, like when they started shipping Macs without a floppy drive. Hey, if we followed this rationale, we would all be editing on the prohibitively expensive, and powerless Lisa. Glad Jobs kicked off that white elephant and brought the Mac to the table.
Apple's made no secret about its market model for optical drives; hence no updates for DVD SP or any real blu ray support.
What are your experiences with FCP X in your testing? Just wondering.
We're seeing more reports that people like a lot of its features.
Given its a v.1 release, what would you like to see in the next version that would work with your workflow specifically?
Remember, this is a new version of the application, not an update to FCS3 or FCP 7.
So it's version 1 of FCP X.
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While I'm not a professional editor who has invested years of work into building video production workflows based on Final Cut Studio, I can readily emphasize with those whose future income has been jeopardized by Apple's abrupt abandonment of such a widely used production platform. It's a shame that so many of Apple's self-appointed defenders insist on adding insult to injury.
I understand your concern, but to my knowledge FCP 7 still is working, and it's been represented that it will work in Lion as well.
How do you determine who are "Apple's self-appointed defenders?" Everyone has an opinion here.
A friend e mailed me with the following thought, which I agree with:
"Most people only really want an open discussion so long as you agree with them"
Could you explain how disagreeing with a position you hold adds insult to injury? How does that work?
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This is specifically what I mean by an insult, David. Do you really think it adds anything positive to the discussion?
As for Final Cut Studio's future viability, my understanding is that Apple has terminated all maintenance and support for this product. If I were operating a video production shop that was reliant on this software, I'd be faced with the decision of whether it makes good business sense to continue to invest time and resources into an abandoned production system with an uncertain lifespan. A complex tool whose sole supplier has abruptly terminated all technical support, refuses to provide licenses for any additional workstations that may be needed in the future, and who has neglected to provide a viable workflow migration path for its long-term customers.
I don't think I'd be willing to risk a single dime of my future income on a proposition like that.
I'm a freelance director; sometimes I just direct the shoot, often I perform at least the first edit, sometimes I follow the production right through to delivery.
Any and all training I get is on my coin, my time, and my judgement.
FCP has been 'my' editor of choice for a few years now -- determined in part by what the producers I work with want me to use. Typically, I'm handed a drive, asked to do the edit & I hand the drive back as delivery. One or two houses I work with use other than FCP -- but even those are content if I work and deliver in FCP.
So now my dilemma -- if I think the wind is blowing FCPX's way, I better start investing in learning it. My experience is that I'll have to find about 100 hours to devote to really learning a new program like this -- let's call that three weeks work. And I'll have to work that in with paid projects I'm doing ... so likely take me four or five months to get those weeks in. Maybe I'll have to work an extra week in, what with all the changes apparently included. And buy some tutorials, and a book or two. So in addition to the modest cost of the program (likely close to $1,000 by the time all the important plug-ins are added) say $300 for books and tutorials. And three or four of weeks of time ... another $8,000+. Let's call it an investment of money and time approaching $10,000.
Truthfully, it's could be worse than that -- I may have to invest in another program (or two!) -- if FCP is not the way forward in my corner of the industry, I better hedge my bets and make some sort of investment in PP & MC. Or I can wait, see which way the smoke is drifting and work overtime to get ahead -- so much for a lazy month this summer. So something like 10%, maybe more like 20% of this year's time and money have to be invested in upgrading -- just to stay even. Hey, I'm not whining -- the freelance thing has its risks and rewards. But six months ago I wasn't looking at this; if FCP8 had rolled out the way I'd imagined, there would have been a few dollars to spend on upgrades, a few hours invested in learning ...
So let's not make sharp tongued comments about whose professional, or what are reasonable expectations of our suppliers. Let's reflect on the impact this change has had, will have -- and weigh that against the gains it promises. Frankly, I'm still scoping it out, but there is a cost to me for being late to the party too.
Cheers,
GB
Any and all training I get is on my coin, my time, and my judgement.
FCP has been 'my' editor of choice for a few years now -- determined in part by what the producers I work with want me to use. Typically, I'm handed a drive, asked to do the edit & I hand the drive back as delivery. One or two houses I work with use other than FCP -- but even those are content if I work and deliver in FCP.
So now my dilemma -- if I think the wind is blowing FCPX's way, I better start investing in learning it. My experience is that I'll have to find about 100 hours to devote to really learning a new program like this -- let's call that three weeks work. And I'll have to work that in with paid projects I'm doing ... so likely take me four or five months to get those weeks in. Maybe I'll have to work an extra week in, what with all the changes apparently included. And buy some tutorials, and a book or two. So in addition to the modest cost of the program (likely close to $1,000 by the time all the important plug-ins are added) say $300 for books and tutorials. And three or four of weeks of time ... another $8,000+. Let's call it an investment of money and time approaching $10,000.
Truthfully, it's could be worse than that -- I may have to invest in another program (or two!) -- if FCP is not the way forward in my corner of the industry, I better hedge my bets and make some sort of investment in PP & MC. Or I can wait, see which way the smoke is drifting and work overtime to get ahead -- so much for a lazy month this summer. So something like 10%, maybe more like 20% of this year's time and money have to be invested in upgrading -- just to stay even. Hey, I'm not whining -- the freelance thing has its risks and rewards. But six months ago I wasn't looking at this; if FCP8 had rolled out the way I'd imagined, there would have been a few dollars to spend on upgrades, a few hours invested in learning ...
So let's not make sharp tongued comments about whose professional, or what are reasonable expectations of our suppliers. Let's reflect on the impact this change has had, will have -- and weigh that against the gains it promises. Frankly, I'm still scoping it out, but there is a cost to me for being late to the party too.
Cheers,
GB
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Don't know how much time you need... the 'last' update for FCP was... what 2 years ago... and really most of the package is at least 3-4 years 'old' relative to what other 'pro' vendors have done...
And what has Apple done with the 'delayed' update... not wowed your sox off... but almost taken you to the woodshed...
If I were 'dependent' on Apple for everything wonderful, I'd be looking around...
And remember... Adobe has a 30 day trial period for its software... Apple has never had that at least with the 'pro' software... you either buy it because everyone else did, or you get some experience in some venue like a school.
On the other hand, there is Lightworks Beta Open Source if you want to start to 'relearn' all of your favorite operations, and have something that doesn't quite have 'everything you really need'... what's more... it's free...
studio1972
Well-known member
Not sure how it was an insult to say you are not a child, but a pro. But anyway, that aside, not selling a product any more doesn't mean they don't support it, that's 2 very different things.
As you should. But jumping in the wrong direction might be more expensive than not jumping at all -- that's my point. There is an investment required to stay current, a bigger investment required to make a change (and I think FCPX is a change, and 'staying current' with FCP7 not an option by defintion) and an even bigger investment in making a change & then changing again ... You aren't wrong, but neither can you be certain which way is the best way forward.
Cheers,
GB
stoneinapond
Veteran
I don't know you or your work methods. But I think your estimates are way out of line. Ripple training is $40 and aside from watching the tutorials (I haven't added those hours up) my bet is that you would be up an running in far fewer hours.
Just an opinion.
Or you can save your $40 and just RTFM. rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0/
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0/
stoneinapond
Veteran
Or you can save your $40 and just RTFM.
http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0/
That works too.
:2vrolijk_08:
studio1972
Well-known member
It does, but I'm about half way through the ripple videos now, and doing it that way has shown me a lot of thinks I'd have skimmed past in the manual. Still not 100% sure I like everything about it yet, but what I've seen is very good, and the way it handles media is far superior to FCP7. I may have a FCS3 License for sale soon if people are after them