Apple condems SxS to the rubbish heap along with P2!

[PaulyV]

As someone you has used and built all of my PC's for my video & photo work, I have to say the arguments in the last few posts were valid about 7-10 years ago.

Windows really came of age to the mainstream with XP. Pre XP Windows was a work in progress.

The old view that Macs are for creative people and if you run audio apps or do video production you need a Mac is just that, old.

Back in the day, there were more applications in the creative fields written for Mac, so those people had to use Mac.

That is not the case today. So I have to speak up for the stability of my experience using Windows XP. I keep a clean system and any crashes are most always from software not the operating system.

Your computing life will not end should you use a non-Mac based computer.

Totally 100% right. And people with PC problems...They arent like MAC. You dont just turn them on and plug in and go. They do require a little attention before you're set to go. make sure everything is updated and ready to go before diving into that 20 hour editing project. Oh and SAVE OFTEN!!!!!! Seems like the MAC is just the lazy mans PC. just me rambling.

 

[PerroneFord]

Have YOU checked prices? :evil:

B&H lists the following:
8GB SxS: $430, and 800mbps
16GB P2: $410, and 1200mbps

32GB SxS: $845, and 800mbps
32GB P2: $615, and 1200mbps

Certainly, which is why I said that P2 prices have adjusted to be price competitive after years of Panasonic saying it couldn't do it cheaper. And I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "we didn't think anyone would want the cheaper technology" argument. Of COURSE people want cheaper alternatives. They've been BEGGING for it for years.

Okay, a few things:
1) the original P2 technology is still priced like it was. You're trying to paint it that there's something dishonest going here. All you have to do is look at SSD drives and research MLC vs. SLC memory. There is plenty of evidence to show that what they said is happening, is exactly what is happening. At NAB I asked plenty of people about this, and the general vibe I got from them was "we didn't think anyone would want MLC, we engineered it all around SLC. Guess we were wrong on the demand for cheap cards." So they still offer the SLC cards for those who need them and want them engineered for that level of reliability, and for "the rest of us" they offer the shorter-lifespan MLC cards. It's a funny thing, how when you actually give people what they want, they tend to buy it... everybody was talking about the cheaper cards at NAB.

I'm not saying anything here is dishonest. I am saying that Panasonic refused to listen to it's customer base clamoring for cheaper alternatives. Instead those customers ran to buy alternative recording devices. Not sure why Panasonic didn't see this. Or actually, yes I do understand and it's sad.

2) SxS cards are "selling like hotcakes"? Seriously? Do you have any statistics to back that up? I've talked to plenty of dealers, and the EX1 is trickling along, the EX3 is doing pretty well, but -- nobody talks about SxS cards. They're all talking about the adapters and the SD cards.

No I do not have the statistics to back it up. However if one looks at the rather small footprint of the adatper users versus the number of EXx series of cameras being used, it would stand to reason that others are using SxS cards. Those plugged in to the online forums are certainly finding out about the adapters but that is a tiny sum in the grand scheme. And even many of those are buying SxS for their paid work, and leaving the adapter use for home projects. SxS is still needed for full overcrank, so there's that as well.

And this isn't being facetious, this is a serious question -- who's buying them? It sure isn't broadcast, with 75% of USA stations that have gone tapeless going P2, and 85% of Europe, and 95% of Asia. And of those stations that have gone XDCAM, most have gone disc. I haven't found a network or even a single TV station yet that's running on SxS. I imagine there must be some out there, but I haven't found any. So -- if it's not the networks, and it's not the stations, and it's not the end users (who are apparently running KxS with SD cards) then -- who's left to buy up SxS cards "like hotcakes"?

Who's buying them? People/companies who own the cameras. Look, I know that all conversations with you in regards to P2 turn to broadcast. I freely admit that Panasonic is a poweful player in the broadcast market.

What I would love to see is the statistics of SxS sales and P2 sales when corporate (broadcast) ownership is taken out of the mix. Plenty of HVX/HPX and EX1/EX3 cams are in the hands of private users. It would be interesting to see how those sales rank on a per-year basis. Again, I think you are grossly overstating the footprint of KxS or similar solutions.

With (according to Panasonic) over 110,000 P2 units out there, being used at over 1,000 stations worldwide, and those customers being major networks like NBC, ABC, and Fox, it's customer demand, not phantom competition from SxS, that led to the introduction of the E series cards and the lower prices.

Wasn't it you just a few months ago, that said that cheaper P2 prices weren't required primarily because the large customer base of Networks and broadcast didn't need them?

And yes, I agree 100% about Apple's attitude. Thing is, it's served them well for a long time, but -- well, we'll see if it continues to. Looks like there's quite a bit of backlash over the latest MBP changes.

Apple for many years had the hardware poised to capture a major portion of the home user market. That has been true since the Apple 2E/2C. And yet, they remain what is essentially an afterthought in the grand scheme of market representation. I place that squarely on their hubris and arrogance. Apples primary customer base all those years ago, and still today, are more ofthen than not, people frustrated with PCs. How you base growing a business on the disgruntled customers of your competitors is beyond me.

If you call having less than a 10% market share after over 20 years "serving them well" then I guess you're right.

I don't mean this to sound antagonistic or argumentative. I respect what you do an awful lot. We just tend to disagree on certain aspects. I know you're deepy embedded with Panasonic and that's cool. It makes you money. I could care less about Panasonic/JVC/Sony in terms of the tool I use. In fact, I own 2 Panasonics, 1 Sony, and a Canon! They all have their place.

Cheers Barry and don't hate me!

 

[basspig]

Though a bit off-topic, Expresscard 34/54 slots are definately not dead on PC laptops. My wife bought her father a Lenovo laptop for $379 at Newegg 2 weeks ago and, to my surprise, it has an expresscard slot. That said, I did notice a decrease in the prevelance of these slots on this year's laptops on sale at Costco, whereas last year, they were everywhere. But it's interesting to note that the new benchmark for cheap on-site SxS backup is the Lenovo G530.

 

[Barry_Green]

What I would love to see is the statistics of SxS sales and P2 sales when corporate (broadcast) ownership is taken out of the mix. Plenty of HVX/HPX and EX1/EX3 cams are in the hands of private users.

Well, yeah, but what percentage of these cameras are in broadcast, versus private users? I guess that would be an interesting statistic, I don't know where to find it, my assumption is that broadcast makes up the majority of P2 sales but I don't know where the SxS units are going.

Wasn't it you just a few months ago, that said that cheaper P2 prices weren't required primarily because the large customer base of Networks and broadcast didn't need them?

Yes, but that was a few months ago, before NBC stood the world on its head and committed to run all their owned & operated stations on 1/3" cameras. That had never happened before. No broadcaster of any size had ever gone with 1/3" as their A-camera, they were always 2/3" before. Budget became a major player in the discussion in March with that announcement. I don't doubt that NBC may very well have had a hand in demanding the "E" series cards. Prior to this, networks like Fox bought up $30,000 HPX2000s with $20,000 lenses. But in March NBC committed to P2 but did so with $8,000 cameras, changing the broadcast landscape forever.

If you call having less than a 10% market share after over 20 years "serving them well" then I guess you're right.

Apple's market capitalization is $127 billion dollars. That's over half the market cap of Microsoft (at $208 billion). In terms of installed computers, yes Microsoft has 92% and Apple 8%. But in terms of actual business being done, Apple has done very well for themselves. To go from zero to $127 billion in 30 years is not too shabby no matter how you slice it.

Personally I think the days of them caring about their pro video customer are long since gone. They have a "company town" mentality, where they lure you in and try to entrap you within an all-Apple, all-the-time environment. And apparently there are many people (iPod users, iMac users, iTunes users, FCP users) who like that. I do not understand how "less freedom" translates into "I want that" but ... apparently, for many customers, it does. But just because I do not agree with it, doesn't prevent me from acknowledging the reality of the situation.

We just tend to disagree on certain aspects.

Nothing in the world wrong with that. I was asking because as I research I'm not finding the evidence to support the claim, so I'm asking where it's coming from. If SxS was truly taking off, I'd be looking at doing products for it, but my research (dealers) isn't backing up the statements so I'm looking for the facts.

I know you're deepy embedded with Panasonic and that's cool. It makes you money.

I'm only "deeply embedded" in that I know the products well and they work the way I want them to. I don't like JVC's quality, and I don't like Sony's attitude at all. I keep buying Canon stuff, but other than still cameras I haven't cared for their approach in video -- I *hate* their lens controls, for example. The Panasonics are consistent -- same format, same media, same menu structures, same workflow, same usability for five years now. Their philosophy is mainly "fill the customer's needs, give great color, the best recording formats, and a filmlike look." In my position as the answer-guy on DVXUser as well as a consultant to production companies, networks, stations, and individual filmmakers, that sure simplifies the job a lot! I have to keep the details of the DVX100, 100A, 100B, HVX200, 200A, HPX170, HMC150, HPX300 and HPX500 all in my head all simultaneously!

I bought a JVC HD100, I've got a Sony FX1, had a Canon HV20 (gave it to PK), bought a Nikon D90, now I have a Lumix GH1 and an HMC150 and HPX170, and if the economy was better I'd snatch up an HPX300.

Cheers Barry and don't hate me!

No hate whatsoever, and very sorry if you got any indication of any sort of feeling of anything like that. No ill intent at all. I am interested in facts, and always open to learning new ones, as long as they can be verified. If the market opens up somewhere, I want to know about it, so that we can best serve the needs of the DVXUsers. I may hate Apple's attitude, but it's counterproductive to deny that they have somewhere around 50% of the end-user editing seats. I may despise Sony's marketing, but if SxS cards are truly sailing off the shelves, that tells me there's a gap in my market assessment and I want to know where it is and evaluate if we need to go in for more support. Right now my research tells me that the EX1/EX3 had a big spike when it first launched, then dried up substantially, and while combined they sell about as much as the HPX170, in comparison when you add up the HVX200A, HPX170, HPX300, and HPX500 they dwarf the EX users as far as installed market base.

If our market starts migrating in large numbers over to the EX1/EX3, to where DVXUser isn't accurately serving the needs of the filmmakers out there, you can bet I'll be "embedded" with the Sony products very soon. But right now I don't see that happening at all, and instead I see a much bigger trend, which is the GH1 and 5D Mark II. I bought a D90 to get in on the forefront of that trend but ... dude, come on... however, the GH1 and 5D are the real deal. Hence why I pre-ordered a GH1, and if the 5D comes out with 24P I'll be all over that too.

 

[DadinWestchester]

With (according to Panasonic) over 110,000 P2 units out there, being used at over 1,000 stations worldwide, and those customers being major networks like NBC, ABC, and Fox, it's customer demand, not phantom competition from SxS, that led to the introduction of the E series cards and the lower prices.

Barry, please stop quoting Pana on which networks are P2. It is a lie. At least one of those networks is strictly SONY. No Pana allowed!

 

[Barry_Green]

Care to name which one? NBC is 100% P2 on all owned and operated stations (including NBC Universal, CNBC, and Telemundo). Fox is 100% exclusively P2, including Fox News and Fox Business. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (the ABC I was mentioning) is 100% P2. The American Broadcasting Corp (the other ABC) hasn't committed to any format exclusively, and several large ABC affiliates are running P2 (KSTP in minneapolis bought like 40 HPX300s, KGTV in San Diego bought a bunch of HVXs, even my local ABC affiliate WWAY is using P2/HVX200s.) Cox Television converted all 15 of their stations to P2, which include ABC affiliates WFTV, WSB TV, and WSOC-TV, and CBS affiliates KIRO and WHIO. Gray Television operates about 36 stations in America, all affiliated with either ABC, NBC, CBS, or FOX, and they've equipped their ABC affiliates (KAKE, WBKO, WHSV) with P2. Their CBS affiliates that are all running P2 include KKTV, KOLN, WCAV, WCTV, WIFR, WRDW, WSAW, WTVY, and WYMT. The Meredith Broadcasting group has 13 stations, running something like 250 P2 cameras at their affiliates, which include six CBS affiliates and three FOX affiliates.

So where's the lie? With CBS? I didn't list CBS in my initial list, and CBS is pretty much the only network that's got any XDCAM stuff installed; they're running XDCAM HD at their 16 owned & operated stations, but even then lots of their affiliates are P2 instead. Heck, I listed more Gray, Cox and Meredith affiliate stations who are running P2 than all the CBS owned & operated stations combined, who are exclusively XDCAM.

So what do you mean by "No Pana allowed"?

 

[alaskacameradude]

Care to name which one? NBC is 100% P2 on all owned and operated stations (including NBC Universal, CNBC, and Telemundo). Fox is 100% exclusively P2, including Fox News and Fox Business. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (the ABC I was mentioning) is 100% P2. The American Broadcasting Corp (the other ABC) hasn't committed to any format exclusively, and several large ABC affiliates are running P2 (KSTP in minneapolis bought like 40 HPX300s, KGTV in San Diego bought a bunch of HVXs, even my local ABC affiliate WWAY is using P2/HVX200s.) Cox Television converted all 15 of their stations to P2, which include ABC affiliates WFTV, WSB TV, and WSOC-TV, and CBS affiliates KIRO and WHIO. Gray Television operates about 36 stations in America, all affiliated with either ABC, NBC, CBS, or FOX, and they've equipped their ABC affiliates (KAKE, WBKO, WHSV) with P2. Their CBS affiliates that are all running P2 include KKTV, KOLN, WCAV, WCTV, WIFR, WRDW, WSAW, WTVY, and WYMT. The Meredith Broadcasting group has 13 stations, running something like 250 P2 cameras at their affiliates, which include six CBS affiliates and three FOX affiliates.

So where's the lie? With CBS? I didn't list CBS in my initial list, and CBS is pretty much the only network that's got any XDCAM stuff installed; they're running XDCAM HD at their 16 owned & operated stations, but even then lots of their affiliates are P2 instead. Heck, I listed more Gray, Cox and Meredith affiliate stations who are running P2 than all the CBS owned & operated stations combined, who are exclusively XDCAM.

So what do you mean by "No Pana allowed"?

Hmmmm.....I may be misunderstanding you here, as a matter of fact, I MUST
be misunderstanding you here! It APPEARS to me that you are saying that ALL
(100%) of NBC affiliates are P2??? Which, can't be what you are saying,
cause it is not true. For example, NPPA's small station of the year from last year KTUU (NBC) in Anchorage Alaska......is NOT a P2 shop....and I know of plenty more
(Fox and NBC and ABC affiliates) that are not P2 either......so I assume there is something else in play here.....maybe it's the owned and operated part?
These affiliates I am thinking of are NOT owned by NBC or Fox or ABC??
I'm not sure how these things work, but I do know that there are plenty
of affiliates out there with Sony gear, not Panasonic P2.

 

[adamr316]

I agree with Barry on a lot of points. The EX1 and EX3 are great cameras but Panasonic as a company is consistent. As videographers/engineers here we know that consistentcy is something a lot of companies could use a lot of. That's one of the things I can't stand when switching from camera to camera or NLE to NLE.

They should all work relatively similarly and their strucure (especially the menus/what things are called) should be the same. It's like the designers rename stuff just to justify their jobs/please their bosses or something.

Paying attention to your customer's needs/wants should be number 1. And it's how a lot of innovate or new ideas/inventions come about. Have a problem? Here's the solution. And so on...(insert Donald Trump advice here.)

I think more people know about the SxS adaptors than Sony cares to know about. I'm not saying EVERYONE is going the alternative route because the alternative isn't 100% reliable...in our economy and just the way people are with money even before the recession.

Now that storage capacities are much larger than they were when P2 was initially introduced and AVC-Intra 50 is out, I believe it's now a viable format. It WAS before it's time but in retrospect Panasonic played it smart and introduced it so that by the time things were the way they are the format could be mature. And yay for the E cards because it has/will benefit me as an EX1 owner!

Agreed about Sony's attitude. I love their technology but damn their proprietary-everything crap.

 

[adamr316]

Hmmmm.....I may be misunderstanding you here, as a matter of fact, I MUST
be misunderstanding you here! It APPEARS to me that you are saying that ALL
(100%) of NBC affiliates are P2??? Which, can't be what you are saying,
cause it is not true. For example, NPPA's small station of the year from last year KTUU (NBC) in Anchorage Alaska......is NOT a P2 shop....and I know of plenty more
(Fox and NBC and ABC affiliates) that are not P2 either......so I assume there is something else in play here.....maybe it's the owned and operated part?
These affiliates I am thinking of are NOT owned by NBC or Fox or ABC??
I'm not sure how these things work, but I do know that there are plenty
of affiliates out there with Sony gear, not Panasonic P2.

No, read this article: http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/02/11/daily.7/

All NBC Universal (or is it General Electric?) owned and operated stations will be going P2. That doesn't include NBC local affiliates who may or may not decide to use P2.

 

[Barry_Green]

It APPEARS to me that you are saying that ALL
(100%) of NBC affiliates are P2??? Which, can't be what you are saying,
cause it is not true.

No, I'm saying all NBC owned & operated stations are P2. Individual affiliates are free to choose whatever equipment they want; that's how CBS o&o's can be XDCAM but lots of individual affiliates are P2.

The network o&o's make up a comparatively small number of the total stations out there (but they frequently are the biggest stations, the big players in the big media markets.) Most of the stations carrying network programming are affiliates, which means they're either independently owned or part of a bigger group (like Meredith or Gray or Cox) and they sign contracts with the networks to carry their programming in prime time (so they're independent stations that are "affiliated" with the major networks). The networks own some big stations, usually in the top media markets, and sign contracts with hundreds of affiliates across the country.

so I assume there is something else in play here.....maybe it's the owned and operated part?
These affiliates I am thinking of are NOT owned by NBC or Fox or ABC??

Exactly.

 

[Ben_B]

I am sure it has been mentioned but the 17" macbook pro supports ExpressCard, and there are many other solutions for getting your SxS footage onto your mac, including the most obvious (although not at all ideal) using your camera and USB. I will be doing that with my GH1 because my older laptop does not have the SDHC card slot, would I like one with it? Yes. Is it a deal breaker? No. Same is true with SxS. When they dropped support for PCMCIA there was a work around for P2 users: the duel adapter. There will always be work arounds, and they will not be terribly inconvinent, in any case, if you have an EX-1 or another SxS camera and are using it now it means you have a workflow for it, just don't throw out your ExpressCard capable laptop when you upgrade. Easy.

 

[alaskacameradude]

No, I'm saying all NBC owned & operated stations are P2. Individual affiliates are free to choose whatever equipment they want; that's how CBS o&o's can be XDCAM but lots of individual affiliates are P2.

The network o&o's make up a comparatively small number of the total stations out there (but they frequently are the biggest stations, the big players in the big media markets.) Most of the stations carrying network programming are affiliates, which means they're either independently owned or part of a bigger group (like Meredith or Gray or Cox) and they sign contracts with the networks to carry their programming in prime time (so they're independent stations that are "affiliated" with the major networks). The networks own some big stations, usually in the top media markets, and sign contracts with hundreds of affiliates across the country.

Ok, thanks, I think I understand now. I am pretty sure that all the affiliates that I have worked at before I started my business
were all independently owned or in a couple cases, were owned by some big media 'conglomorate' which owned enough
radio and tv stations and newspapers in an area, that I always wondered how they got around FCC rules cause they basically
had a monopoly on the news in the area......but even though they were affiliates and even supplied news to the national news
desk of their respective networks on a very frequent basis....they were not OWNED by that network.

By the way, I shot a bunch of the Iditarod in 07......the one that Panasonic
was helping sponsor. They had a whole team up there shooting basically the
whole race with HVX 200s and the HPX 500s (I think). The big promotion was
that P2 was durable enough to withstand the Iditarod trail, and from everything
I heard, the Panasonic cams performed without a hitch. However, so did my cam...
an old Sony PD-150. It has always made me laugh when I saw the marketing
speak that came out of Panasonic after that race....where it was implied that
tape based cameras couldn't stand up to the 'extreme' conditions in Alaska....
especially as I live and work here and they came in from 'outside' for a couple
weeks. I have shot in more extreme conditions a lot longer than those guys
and while they are undoubtedly more skilled than I am, I have almost NEVER
had a problem....well maybe with my batteries dying quick even with a handwarmer
taped on them at -60 in Fairbanks, but that's about it.

 

[DC]

After I adopted the dreadful Windows Vista, I was seriously considering buying a Mac.

But then Windows 7 beta appeared, followed by Windows 7 RC1. Wow - what an improvement! Around the same time, Mac hardware began shifting away from being useful for pro video guys.

October is when Windows 7 is scheduled to officially be released. As far as I can tell, I'll remain in a Windows environment and be functionaly productive and happy.

 

[Noel Evans]

I moved to mac because one too many crashes with pp and also an issue I had with Adobe in general at that time. From what I hear, these are things of the past.

Im pretty entrenched on my Mac Pro and FCS for editing and I dont see that will change. For laptop though, heres my one experience with mac. Three battery changes in warranty then out of warranty battery died again - admittedly in warranty they changed them easily and without question, but I dont see any need to pay that premium for my needs, especially after the issues I had.

Now I use a Toshiba laptop in the field, connect it to the net once every few months to get my software updates which arent many, and its reliable.

Horses for courses.

 

[thxdave]

Noel, I don't know if this would have applied to you, but I saw this story today and it seemed appropriate:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=4310

I too moved to Mac to escape the problems of the PC but also so I could begin using FCP. It's been a rocky road for me too and this ExpressCard exclusion is REALLY beginning to make me think I jumped ship too soon. Also, if Windows 7 lives up to its' hype, I may have to look at getting a netbook or build a Hackintosh.