Anybody using tungsten still?

SJX said:
I first thought they were screen grabs from the Alexa and I was like, it somehow doesn't look Alexa. Then I saw they were behind the scenes shots made with a stills camera. But what situations do you used the Ursa over the Alexa?
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Yeah they’re stills, but it was more to illustrate the use of mixed colour lighting.

When I was starting out on film, we’d meticulously gel our lights to make everything the same colour, but nowadays I fin’d I’m happy to mix the colour a lot more.

These are Leica M, Leica S and Olympus EM1 stills, but the idea is the same...

I like to use a small camera sometimes for getting very hyper subjective coverage. It’s used a lot for showing characters internal thinking moments.

Being a small camera, it means I can get less conventional coverage too, it’s less “tv”

JB
 
John Brawley said:
Yeah they’re stills, but it was more to illustrate the use of mixed colour lighting.

When I was starting out on film, we’d meticulously gel our lights to make everything the same colour, but nowadays I fin’d I’m happy to mix the colour a lot more.

These are Leica M, Leica S and Olympus EM1 stills, but the idea is the same...

I like to use a small camera sometimes for getting very hyper subjective coverage. It’s used a lot for showing characters internal thinking moments.

Being a small camera, it means I can get less conventional coverage too, it’s less “tv”

JB
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I understand your point of small camera if talking about this blackmagic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbrawley/27042177867/in/photostream/

But the ursa set up is barely any smaller than your alexa mini set up. This looks basically same size as a mini: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbrawley/26452198857/in/photostream/
 
Run&Gun said:
You mean the original Sports Century lighting? The subject was easy. Key only(Chimera w/eggcrate and 1/4-1/2 CTB). No hair/edge, no fill. Then we spent 17 hours lighting the background... Or it felt like it, sometimes... At the end of the original SD series, we had it down to a formula and you could set up an entire interview in about 45 minutes, but the ORIGINAL Top 50 Greatest that started the series, the guys got an entire day to light.

The dramatic, no-fill style has always been what I've liked. It's still pretty damn rare when I use any fill in an interview.
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I'm not sure what I'm referencing exactly, just some of those really serious interviews with pro athletes, usually the longer form segments. A lot of them still look great but others have aged horribly.

It was a strange mix of a dramatic chiaroscuro attempt but rather than vito corleone there's some guy wearing a full baseball uniform. This overall style seems off by today's standards.
 
SJX said:
But the ursa set up is barely any smaller than your alexa mini set up. This looks basically same size as a mini:
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But there’s a few critical difference.

The UMP dressed to shoot is lighter. Much lighter in weight.

To make the Alexa Mini shootable like this you inevitably end up adding a cage. And then you add a battery power module. And then you have to add a monitor. And the rigging for a monitor. And a handle. All stuff that’s basically built into a UMP.

A UMP can be rigged with the included bolt on-handle direct to the rosette on the side which weighs nothing at all. The screen is BUILT in and very importantly, it rotates. I can hold this rig in one hand. I can’t do that with any Alexa Mini build.

You also can’t physically and seamlessly move an Alexa mini camera in space the same way as I can with a UMP.

The shot you reference there, I can jib the camera down, twisting the monitor as I do and be pointing up at the surgeon. I can do that easily because the weight is held easily by one hand and I can twist the operating screen to keep it in the right place for me to “see” the shot.

If that was an Alexa mini it would weigh a lot more, and there’s no EASY mechanism to allow that degree of adjustability with re-orienting the screen in the middle of the take “on-air”

The DP that followed after me on S3 of The Resident declined to use the UMP for those shots and instead built an Alexa mini the way you think you can build it to be the same. And learned that it’s not. After about a month after they started shooting the producer rang to ask if they could hire two UMP’s from me for the rest of the show. Apparently the shots also were very unstable and had a lot of camera shake too. (The A mini ones) because they’d put two hand grips on it...like it was a machine gun...again, totally the wrong way to operate that camera if you’re trying to do this style of operating.

You can’t physically move the Alexa mini in space the way you can with a smaller rig like this.

I did try. For a while I had an Alexa mini with a lot of the accessory stuff off board in a backpack. That took some of the weight back off the camera, but it then meant I was tethered and it was a pain between takes cause I had to take the backpack on and off or unplug it and then have to -reboot it.

AND

There’s no easy solution to a re-orientable lightweight screen that’s powered by the camera. If you add an external monitor to an Alexa mini, it has to be attached somehow, it has to be powered somehow, and most importantly, it can’t be moved with a single hand in space.

The UMP allows that because the built in screen can rotate through 180 degrees and is powered internally.

They’re not the same cameras to operate.

JB

Here’s another shot

https://flic.kr/p/PB1oBz

EDIT - Another shot. It’s smaller than a Mini rigged with the same stuff and definitely lighter.
 
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Here's a VR shot riding on an Ursa I used to shoot a oner for the close of an episode on The Resident.

It's not the best example, but you can see that I can move the camera very quickly, make small adjustments. Yes you could maybe just do this hand held but it probably wouldn't be as smooth. And you'll notice at the end I "boom" or "jib" the camera down as he pushes the button. That would be harder to do hand held and hard to do with an Alexa Mini.

https://vimeo.com/434538778

Password is

Resident

It's a 360 shot so click and drag or put your headset on...

Oh. Quit a lot of tungsten in there. The big flare half way though its a dedo way up high. Par cans of course.

Also, notice I switch on the ring light after the first "scene-ette" as I'm walking. Meaning I was carrying the camera with one hand while I switched it on with the other while walking....


JB
 
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SJX said:
I understand your point of small camera if talking about this blackmagic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbrawley/27042177867/in/photostream/

But the ursa set up is barely any smaller than your alexa mini set up. This looks basically same size as a mini: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbrawley/26452198857/in/photostream/
Click to expand...
Agreed. Though I still haven't seen anyone make a mini as a mini.

The Red Ranger is actually about the same size as the Ursa MPG2, though in some ways smaller. The whole body is cheese holes, Arri rosettes, lemo power 24v and 12v, P-tap, and three BNC video outs and all that jazz, so it doesn't need the Wooden Camera D-box, and ends up being a bit smaller and lighter than a Ursa. Although, a Komodo seems like the more logical choice. DSMC2 fan noise would deter me from using up close. The Komodo also has built in wireless video.

Ursa is nice for the obvious reasons of being an all-in-one. Although, it seems a bit big and heavy to become the defect handheld rig. A guy I know pretty much shoots everything in that miniDV style with his Ursa. the flippy screen sort of asks you to. How a camera is laid out really influences shooting styles.

Nothing really would beat the DVX100 as far as spontaneity and freedom goes. Can definitely see some of that miniDV camcorder technique being nice for a more spirited operating style.

DVX100 lives on!
 
https://flic.kr/p/2jhofPn

A Ranger is fully two and a half pounds bigger than a stock UMP and doesn’t have a built in monitor, which I’ve already explained through pictures and video, is a unique combination for a particular style of shooting.

JB
 
Seems like the UMP is the DVX of S35 cine cams.

I'm sure you can rig the Komodo to suit the purpose, but I wonder if it will balance as easily with a heavy lens.

John - have you had any reliability issues with the Ursa? I read the occasional nightmare account
 
John Brawley said:
But there’s a few critical difference.

The UMP dressed to shoot is lighter. Much lighter in weight.

To make the Alexa Mini shootable like this you inevitably end up adding a cage. And then you add a battery power module. And then you have to add a monitor. And the rigging for a monitor. And a handle. All stuff that’s basically built into a UMP.

A UMP can be rigged with the included bolt on-handle direct to the rosette on the side which weighs nothing at all. The screen is BUILT in and very importantly, it rotates. I can hold this rig in one hand. I can’t do that with any Alexa Mini build.

You also can’t physically and seamlessly move an Alexa mini camera in space the same way as I can with a UMP.

The shot you reference there, I can jib the camera down, twisting the monitor as I do and be pointing up at the surgeon. I can do that easily because the weight is held easily by one hand and I can twist the operating screen to keep it in the right place for me to “see” the shot.

If that was an Alexa mini it would weigh a lot more, and there’s no EASY mechanism to allow that degree of adjustability with re-orienting the screen in the middle of the take “on-air”

The DP that followed after me on S3 of The Resident declined to use the UMP for those shots and instead built an Alexa mini the way you think you can build it to be the same. And learned that it’s not. After about a month after they started shooting the producer rang to ask if they could hire two UMP’s from me for the rest of the show. Apparently the shots also were very unstable and had a lot of camera shake too. (The A mini ones) because they’d put two hand grips on it...like it was a machine gun...again, totally the wrong way to operate that camera if you’re trying to do this style of operating.

You can’t physically move the Alexa mini in space the way you can with a smaller rig like this.

I did try. For a while I had an Alexa mini with a lot of the accessory stuff off board in a backpack. That took some of the weight back off the camera, but it then meant I was tethered and it was a pain between takes cause I had to take the backpack on and off or unplug it and then have to -reboot it.

AND

There’s no easy solution to a re-orientable lightweight screen that’s powered by the camera. If you add an external monitor to an Alexa mini, it has to be attached somehow, it has to be powered somehow, and most importantly, it can’t be moved with a single hand in space.

The UMP allows that because the built in screen can rotate through 180 degrees and is powered internally.

They’re not the same cameras to operate.

JB

Here’s another shot

https://flic.kr/p/PB1oBz

EDIT - Another shot. It’s smaller than a Mini rigged with the same stuff and definitely lighter.
Click to expand...

Ok now I understand. Well the alexa mini is not a handycam. The ursa kind of is so it can work this way. But so could many other handycams. Just different tools I guess. But how you found the quality difference between alexa and ursa to match? In low light alexa is king and ursa has vertical lines if not enough light. Also not as good as alexa in low light. I guess you probably had full control of lighting and in this case any camera looks good. But you found the quality difference hard to hide? The 2 stops more in DR from Alexa is not apparent? Could you point to a clip of the show online where alexa and ursa intercut? Would be interesting. Also interesting to know if the ursas last long on a set. I broke a blackmagic camera after 4 days of shooting but the alexa was full of deep scratches and still going.
 
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John Brawley said:
Here's a VR shot riding on an Ursa I used to shoot a oner for the close of an episode on The Resident.

It's not the best example, but you can see that I can move the camera very quickly, make small adjustments. Yes you could maybe just do this hand held but it probably wouldn't be as smooth. And you'll notice at the end I "boom" or "jib" the camera down as he pushes the button. That would be harder to do hand held and hard to do with an Alexa Mini.

https://vimeo.com/434538778

Password is

Resident

It's a 360 shot so click and drag or put your headset on...

Oh. Quit a lot of tungsten in there. The big flare half way though its a dedo way up high. Par cans of course.

Also, notice I switch on the ring light after the first "scene-ette" as I'm walking. Meaning I was carrying the camera with one hand while I switched it on with the other while walking....


JB
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Wow nice. That's art. I can only think how much rehearsal it took. You are just cutting off mic guy off frame or is post erased? Anyway the whole dance must have been hard to get right. Congrats!
 
John Brawley said:
https://flic.kr/p/2jhofPn

A Ranger is fully two and a half pounds bigger than a stock UMP and doesn’t have a built in monitor, which I’ve already explained through pictures and video, is a unique combination for a particular style of shooting.

JB
Click to expand...

The D-box is 1.5lbs and adds an extra couple centimeters to the length. Just saying that all of these cameras are a bit bulky for DVX100 use. The Ranger lightens up when the rigging and AKS come into play, but none of these cameras are exactly ideal for extended handheld use. Definitely better than an SXT or DXL2 though! And it is far more simple to run with a stock Ursa than build a Ranger or Mini into a DV style camera, but maybe a far cry from the cameras that Anthony Dod Mantle might have used to innovate with.
 
ahalpert said:
Seems like the UMP is the DVX of S35 cine cams.

I'm sure you can rig the Komodo to suit the purpose, but I wonder if it will balance as easily with a heavy lens.

John - have you had any reliability issues with the Ursa? I read the occasional nightmare account
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Let's call it the HVX200 of s35.

The Komodo is small enough that you cold configure it however you like and achieve balance. If you kept it small, there are arms that extend forward towards the lens allowing for a more centered balance, but that is not always the best solution for stable handheld footage. Typically you'll want to have a grip on the opposite ends of the camera for stability, no? leverage is it? That is the beauty of miniDV flippy screens, is that it creates a sort of third axis for handheld stability. Which is part of the simplicity and advantage in the Ursa design.
 
We’re veering away from the OP’s question.

These are personal choices.

My choices may not be your choices, though I find it endlessly fascinating that people think they know better what choice I would / should make..

We can debate it in some other relevant thread, though I thought I was pretty clear about why I made those choices.

JB
 
I use tungsten for the bigger fresnel work (5K/10K/T12) for sun gags on stage, Source 4's (the LED ones are still a bit weaksauce) and the odd overhead softbox and other places where budget dictates. Sometimes we'll be stretching the package so far I'll see my gaffer pull out some legit oldies like a 2K zip...yikes.

On the subject of tungsten looking better than LED...almost all tungsten is essentially the same, but that is certainly not the case with LED units. Wide range of results within the latter group, and each new generation brings advancements in their spectral output. Before we went down I was two days away from camera tests for my last series and that was one of the things I had slated, test a series of LED's against a tungsten reference (through same diffusion to keep things as equal and real-world as possible) to do a blind-taste test of the results.
 
John Brawley said:
We’re veering away from the OP’s question.

These are personal choices.

My choices may not be your choices, though I find it endlessly fascinating that people think they know better what choice I would / should make..

We can debate it in some other relevant thread, though I thought I was pretty clear about why I made those choices.

JB
Click to expand...
No one is telling you how to shoot. We're just saying that we might choose a different option. We're just sharing ideas and information. DVXuser is jazz. Just gotta keep rolling with the communication.
 
John Brawley said:
We’re veering away from the OP’s question.

These are personal choices.

My choices may not be your choices, though I find it endlessly fascinating that people think they know better what choice I would / should make..

We can debate it in some other relevant thread, though I thought I was pretty clear about why I made those choices.

JB
Click to expand...

Hi John not sure your reply is to me. But I'm not second guessing your choice. I'm interested in the ursa. I want to buy a 4K camera which is more practical than my big camera. I will not sell F35 because no camera makes an image like it. But I want a cheap 4K to add to my set. But it must not only be 4K. I want more practical too. So much smaller, much lighter, built in ND etc. I was considering either fs700+7Q or C500 MKI +7Q or atomos. In this price range. Don't want to spend more. But maybe ursa mini could also fit. So my question about the ursa and quality issues and how it cuts with alexa etc above is legit interest. And I'm the OP so I don't mind if talk veer to cameras. ;) Thanks for your feedback.
 
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