any good DPs in the house?

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Re: any good DPs in the house?

[quote author=c.g. eads link=board=news;num=1097267836;start=15#16 date=10/09/04 at 17:17:27]The sad thing is, that while a lot of people preach 'collaboration' and 'compromise' when it comes to making a film, most of these people are just looking out for themselves.  [/quote]

In my limited exerience; this rings true the majority of the time.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Guys & Gals,

Egos, Egos, Egos! That is the bottom line. First you want to work collaboratively with a DP that doesn't have an ego, but an ambition. Like the saying goes, there is a thin line between arrogant and confidences. So with experience and ego.

If you learn the ropes, like how to PA, assistant direct, gafe, and light, when you work with a DP, you can speak on common ground. Plus it shows that if the DP doesn't like to shoot a scene, YOU can do it yourself.

By learning about lighting yourself, not necessarily by experience but by reading. You have alteast some knowledge. Some ARROGANT/EGO driven DP once they find out you are inexperience, will take the opportunity to take over your project. It's like "You need me more than I need you" mentality.

Now there are other DP that a great, because they're open to your suggestion. If you want to collaborate with them, they MUST want to collaborate with you. Bottom line.

1) Learn and study lighting - alittle to get by and talk with DP
2) Find your BUDGET - If you have any
3) Interview a few DP, before chosing one. Don't hop on just one, you'll regret it. I know, I went through it too.

Good luck
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

I'm so not-down with the industry side of filmmaking. I don't care how good you are at what you do, if you aren't at least 90% on board with the vision of the film, I don't want you touching it with a ten footer!
I guess everyone has their own styles and opinions. I also can't fathom why people run up credit card debt, or why people are so nonchalant about letting strangers teach their small children...moggles my bind...
To me, if you don't have a DP, you don't have a film.
If it's my little movie, and I don't have a DP, you better believe that the project is on hold until i find one...
Don't get me wrong...You can have a perfect dickhead who understands the movie and will shoot the mess out of it.
I'm not saying that you have to want to hang out with your DP (ideally, heck yes.)
But IF you're going to have a DP at all, she better be on your page, or you on hers (I'm so P.C. baby!). You don't have to be a tyrant, but whosever page it is, you better both be there.
And w/ respects to the George Lucas incident, the weight would have fallen RIGHT back on the DP if Lucas got burned (physically or metaphorically). That statement is the mark of GOOD DP. Especially if you don't know your stuff...and a good dp will concede to your choice only after she has sufficiently gotten you to understand her concerns with your choice. It's her job.
It should be one big happy.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

A good DP is indispensable but many independent film makers are learning the art on the run and many others have spent years in the film and video business getting their chops down. If you want a production to encase your vision as a director and you don't have the expertise to plan, set-up and shoot your project, then get all the help you can afford. Otherwise, take you chances, do the work yourself, make the mistakes and learn from them. It's your film!
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Lots of great points here. To add to the last comment, production companies won't have much confidence in you either if you can't work with a crew - or don't have experience doing so.

c.g., it definitely sounds like you've got worries letting others handle your "baby" - we can all relate. A lot of things can go wrong. But take it from me: much, much more can go wrong if you go it "solo" without the proper skill.

Think of this as a really exciting time - imagine finding a DP, gaffer, 1st ad, sound man/woman etc that you just click with, and form a lasting professional relationship? It makes the next film that much easier.

You've got a passion project. Find others who share that passion, and money won't be too big of an issue.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Woah, I moved all weekend and this thread went a'flyin...

First off...c.g. eads...welcome, you should register with us now as you've started a thread with much heated debate.  We're a welcoming community and we love to help as much as we love to debate.  

I didn't mean my post to sound scolding, instead I meant it as a suggestion to you to head off the inevitable negative reactions that might result from your approach to your project.  As you can see, people feel strongly about this issue, so it would be easy to offend a DP that might otherwise be interested in working with you.  I suggested you find a gaffer and frame the shoot yourself rather then look for a legitimate DP.

A couple of points:  you note a point in the Star Wars DVD where George Lucas was unable to place a light.  Understand that as much as it sounds like it’s a situation where the DP is tying the director’s hands unnecessarily…there are very specific union rules about what you can and can’t do in other people’s departments.  A director cannot move a light on a union production because it is not his job.  That’s an agreement between the unions, not a pissing contest between a Cinematographer and a Director.

On nonunion shoots, there aren’t those same restrictions, however there are still many times when it would be bad for a director to place lights without being directed to do so by a DP.  If you were directing a scene and the DP walked over to your lead actor and told him to look in a completely different direction without first consulting you, he’d be stepping all over your directorial toes.  Even if he’s just doing it for a better shot, that sort of correction has to go through the director before it can be implemented.

It works the same for the other departments.  If you want something changed, you need to consult with the DP in order to make the change.  A DP might already be thinking the same thoughts you are, and he might have a specific idea that might echo your own thoughts.  He might also be able to present a compelling argument in opposition to your suggestions.  As director, the decision is ultimately yours, but you should afford the DP the collaborative spirit before neutering them creatively.

As far as the greenlight DP.  Woah, everyone knows one of those guys and their reputation often preceeds them.  That being said, others are right in saying that the DP has a specific interest in maintaining their level of art.  You must realize that what you’re going to release doesn’t just have your name on it.  There are other people who will trade upon your project to further their careers, and if you regularly demand that they aim lower then their ideals, they won’t feel comfortable attaching their name to your project.

That DP should have been more vocal about the shot, and it was wrong to shake the camera as he did, but I can understand why he did it.

The best suggestion I can give you would be to start looking for a DP if you’re serious about collaboration.  Every resume and reel you get, try and check their references.  Talk to Directors they’ve worked with and producers they’ve worked for to get a consensus about their abilities and working methods.

If you like their work and you like what you hear about them…and you like your talks with him, then chances are that he/she’s going to make your film better then you could make it alone.  If you haven’t already completed a full storyboard, do it and use it in your discussions.  Using storyboards can really help a DP get “on board” with what you want to accomplish.  

Or just get a good gaffer and shoot the thing yourself.  There a lot of directors doing their own camera operation.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Ultimately, whatever you decide, the key will be communication. If you find a DP, let them know what your vision is. They will have their own ideas, and between the two you will probably get something better than you imagined. If you light it yourself, find someone you can work with as a gaffer and do the same thing. A bright person can pick up the basics of what you are trying to do. Do some tests with them first and experiment. Chances are you'll find something close to what you wanted. If something specific comes up, check back here, and someone will probably have an answer for you. But invest in the relationship with a DP, or someone who may want to be a DP. With any luck you'll do a few of these, and you'll want someone you can count on.
 
Joseph V. Mascelli Re: any good DPs in the house?

Joseph V. Mascelli Re: any good DPs in the house?

You might want to read these books as well.

Lighting for Digital Video & Television by John Jackman
Matters of Light and Depth by Ross Lowell
The Five Cs of Cinematography by Joseph V. Mascelli
Cinematography by Kris Malkiewicz
Film Directing Shot by Shot by Steven Katz

But nothing beats hands on experience and if you want your movie to look good, then I would suggest hiring a DP or a Gaffer and learn from him/her as you are shooting.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

I worked on a feature film as a DP (well, that was my title, but I don't know if that was really what I "was") anyway, I have a pretty good basckground in lighting, especially for digital, and I can frame a shoot, but the director was pretty specific in what he wanted for his shots...I didn't agree with his shots, but whatever.
He also wanted to shoot entirely digital and transfer to 35mm, which I didn't know how to do at the time, I read alot before hand. The otehr problem was that the 3 camera men (yes, 3 cameras) had never used the XL-1's that we were shooting on, in fact 2 of them had never really shot a cmaera before. Basically I became more of a babysitter then a DP. I had him hire a Lighting Designer, who in turn brought a gaffer and a grip. Those 3 guys were the best. I would sit with teh Lighting designer and tell them what we wanted the scene to look like and the would jsut take over and run the set, they would get everyone out of the way and start lighting and then when it was done, I would sit behind hte monitors and boss my camera men around.

Maybe you should just hire a good lighting team, with a really skilled lighting designer and shoot your own camera. If you know what you want, go to it. Just make sure that the lighting designer knows something about digital and he will be your best friend.

BTW- They paid the lighting designer 4000 bucks for a 2 week shoot, not iuncluding the money for the equipment and the other crew memebers.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

here comes another boring opinion:

There’s been some really great opinions and anecdotes that have sprung from this topic, but I think within all these discussions we're having, there's a primary concept that really doesn't get recognized enough, and that is the idea that a Director's role is that of management and not creation.

We tend to get wrapped up in these dreams of picking each color, writing each line, selecting each lens, framing each shot, composing each sound and editing each cut. Taken as a whole, it's easy to see how one can become enchanted with the idea of authoring a film, but it simply doesn’t happen that way.

A director is the primary decision maker within the context of a film, but as creative as those decisions may prove to be, it is a host of other people that carry out the tasks involved in the implementation of those decisions.

What I mean to say is that a director is indeed the creative force on a film, but as the production of any film involves more then one person, the primary role of a director is as a manager. A director makes the decisions, leads the efforts, selects his employees, delegates tasks, sets the tone, inspires his crew, plans the events, manages the resources, oversees the creative work, and elicits the finest effort from those both in front of and behind the camera.

All tasks of management.

It’s easy to romanticize the process of filmmaking and attach yourself to some idea of singular creative responsibility, but in doing so it’s easy to forget that all of a director’s actions on set and off are rooted in simple boss/employee relationships.

I think a lot of people romanticize the idea of directing to a point where they truly believe that their creativity alone will result in a successful production, but in thinking that way it becomes to easy to ignore the myriad of management responsibilities that fall under the purview of a director in the pursuit of this idea of creativity.

Being creative is a wonderful gift, it can make you a painter, a composer, a sculptor, and a writer among other things, but I think being able to talk to people and get the best out of them is what really makes a director.

(I wonder if patton would have made a good director?)
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Patton is the author of one of my favorite quotes:
"A good plan today is better than a great plan tomorrow" As to whether he would have been a good director...would it be for a war movie?

You make a good point, a director's greatest skill is what he can evoke from other people. A great director can get things out of people they didn't know possible. On a small production however, more responsibility falls into somebody's (everybody's?) lap. On most of my films (shorts, all) I have been writer/producer/director. At times I have also done sound, lights, craft services, locations, casting and even had to act (if you can call it that). You do whatever it takes to get your vision on the screen. But I operate the way I HAVE to, not the way I WANT to. I'd love to have a creative team that I can work with to make something more than the sum of our parts. Building that team is what I am constantly working on. I think that with few exceptions, the people who truly thrive in filmmaking are those who collaborate well. It is, in fact, what attracted me to the medium. Although director as delegator/administrator doesn't appeal to me, director as collaborator does. The magic is often in the mix. Walking the line between your vision and that mix is what makes a potentially great film.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

I also think that the best bosses in any field are those who are actively involved in their administration and deligations. Ones that don't dictate but collaborate, as you say.

Deligation in any field really only works when paired with active direction (there's that word again).
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Hello, a cinematographer here. I figured I would jump in on this conversation. The most important part of being a filmmaker is to trust those around you, whether it is a DP or a grip. I have been in situations where I am working with a controlling director and all it does is harm the picture (unless your Kubrick). You'll be surprised to find how they can help you work around the flaws in the concept or story that you never realized. If you find a DP, communicate clearly what you want (frame, look, etc.) then step back and worry about the actors. The best example is "Napoleon Dynamite", It did not look very good but Jared Hess knew what he wanted from the actors and got. I am not trying to lecture only trying to help.
sincerely,
Matt
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

J_Barnes wrote on 10/14/04 at 06:21:37

"Being creative is a wonderful gift, it can make you a painter, a composer, a sculptor, and a writer among other things, but I think being able to talk to people and get the best out of them is what really makes a director."


No doubt!

Pretty much sums it all up.

--Bop



(sorry I am dim when it comes to using the Quote Feature)
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

A good plan today is a better plan tomorrow....INDEED!

I have an idea. What you seem to need is a good camera operator and a good gaffer. Both of them should trust you and willing to attempt your vision. Likewise you must trust them that they are doing just that. Sidney Lumet called it making the same film. Everyone has a responsibility to make the same film and not one thing supercedes another in importance.

The DP throwing in a shake to render the footage unusable is not making the same film. For all he knows, that take could have been the best performance that the director might have wanted to use.

With a good cameraman, he will know how to physically frame something as you tell him to and he can do the camera moves after you preview it rehearsed. You guys can practice this. And after doing it your way, asking if he wants to try something or if he has any other ideas will bring him further into the project and he/she will be more excited. While you're rehearsing, the cameraman, if he's really good will know what to tell the gaffer. What lights will be needed where. The head gaffer will then know how to rig the lights as you two rehearse the camera moves.

This system works because one, you really want to be directing the actors. Especially if they aren't like Daniel Day Lewis you will have to work with them. Right? How can you really direct if you're stuck behind the camera? The actors will feel more isolated and uncomfortable.

I've seen many shoots where the director is more worried about the camera than the actors that the actors at one point made it clear to the other cast members that that he wasn't going to put any additional effort into the scene and the director wouldn't know the difference.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

I'm not sure if this would be on the same note or anything like that but, although I shoot and have shot on film and video for a relatively short period of time, I do not consider myself as a DP or Cinematographer. I hesitate to don such a title so quickly.

First, I had the great fortune of working as AC for one of the most famous live arts cameraman alive. He started off his career in Cuba. He was a clerkboy at the local tv production company and everyone was out of the office. He had been in there tinkering with his SLR camera. He gets a call with someone on the other line asking, "Is there anyone there with a video camera? There is a wrestling match that's been going on for about 24 hours and its just about to end." So he lied and with nothing better to do ran over with a spare camera and shot what turned out to be Ernest Hemingway. Needless to say, the piece was edited together and seen all over the world and his career had been born. He was 22.

Anyways, this is the man I'm referring to when I say this. He never called himself a Director of Photographer. "I'm a cameraman. I work with the camera. I work for the boss." He does protect the director from himself when he asks for something that cannot work and because the work he does do speak for itself, the directors listen when it is their turn. I found the working environment so amazing in this kind of relationship.

This gave him time to talk me through out loud what he was doing and why and what I should do and have ready the next time. He was just great. From my work experience as AC at this production company, this is what I've learned so far...
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Solid writing.
Solid acting.
Solid composition.

Concentrate on these first, then worry about lighting.

A film with the aforementioned three will shine through poor lighting.

Great lighting cannot make up for poor writing, acting or composition.
 
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