any good DPs in the house?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Guest
  • Start date Start date
G

Guest

Guest
Am directing my first feature in february. It's a road-tripish movie with a Garden State/Cameron Crowe feel. Will probably be shooting with DVX-100a with mini-35 adapter.

Here's where I'm stuck. I can compose a shot. However, my understanding of light and lighting is limited. Therefore I'm not the best DP in the world but I know what I want so specifically that I'm reluctant to turn that job over to a real DP. Money is an issue as well.

So I guess what I'm looking for is someone who can shoot the hell out of blue skies, cars on the road, hair blowin' in the wind, really make all that stuff look beautiful, really get that 'road trip' feel. And at the same time someone who's not a cinematography snob. Someone who will listen and really try and respect what I'm trying to do, even if it's a little different from the way they taught you in film school. I'm terrified of being on the set and having my DP repeatedly say "no, I can't film that shot, it will look terrible."

Are you a good DP who wants to work in this environment? e-mail me! (or reply here)

thanks, chris
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Why would you be reluctant to let a director of photography do what he does? Furthermore, how could you expect someone to apply themselves artisticly to a project if you intend to dictate 90% of their job?

In my opinion, it really seems like your approaching what should be a collaborative relationship with some seriously negative assumptions.

You're assuming that a cinematographer won't be able to improve upon your ideas, you're assuming that a cinematographer will say no to any idea they don't like, you're assuming that what a cinematographer learns in "film school" is inherrently restricitve, and perhaps most daunting of all...you're assuming that you're going to have all the correct methods and ideas concerning a job you seem to have little experience with.

Light IS cinematography. Thus if you don't understand light, you don't understand cinematography. Plain and simple.

If you want to shoot the thing yourself, which obviously you do, get an experienced gaffer to light your film and don't take your hands off the camera. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that method of working...

BUT...if you seriously would like a creatively collaborative relationship with a technical professional, you might want to rethink your approach a bit.

If your interest is purely in controlling the framing, then perhaps you should seek a cinematographer that will perform all the actual tasks of cinematography and let you operate the camera. There are alot of DP's that would be receptive to this method of working.

Just a thought from a sometimes cinematographer.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

whoa, calm down.

I'm just a first timer who's never done this before and who's heard a lot of horror stories.

just need help, not a scolding.

thanks again,
chris
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Well, the issue arises because when you have little money, little time and little experience, getting a skilled person interesting becomes a challenge, and usually the skilled person might sign on because it'll become an opportunity for them to express themselves creatively.

But if they can't do that either, then it becomes more of a challenge.

There are probably many people who would take on this task, if there's compensation involved. Tell us what wages you might have available, and what schedule, and what area of the country.

Sounds like you're basically wanting a gaffer who can light your scenes for you, and you'll take care of operating the camera yourself, right? I don't think you're really asking for a director of photography, because you want to do some of those tasks yourself. Nothing wrong with that.

Just let us know what wages you have, what the schedule is, what the location is, and I'll bet someone would probably be interested in helping you out!
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Okay, horror story time. I just wrapped a short last week. I was in the same boat, (good composition skill, poor knowledge of lighting) I asked around and had a guy volunteer (No budget film), He sounded like he knew his ****, and he had his own gear. First day, we're at a location and he can't produce ambient light. We just needed to raise the light level to avoid using the overhead fluorescents. I had to light the room myself (turns out we had to reshoot that scene).
Second day we're at a different location. It was a sub shop that had to open at 11. We had 2 hours to shoot about 2 and a half pages, with 4 set-ups, so time was an issue. After we told him exactly what to do, and what lights to use, my production partner and I find him sitting down bullshitting with one of the actors. When we asked why the lights weren't set up, he says "Oh, you wanted those now?"
Now I'm a nice guy and appreciate people's help, especially when I'm not paying them anything. But I had to fire the guy. Which is probably pretty humiliating for him since he wasn't getting paid. But I did it in a nice way.
I spent the rest of the shoot learning everything I can about basic lighting, built some of my own diffusers, and by the end of the shoot we were really getting a handle on everything.
My point is learn what you can. The basics aren't that complicated.
A good DP is both an artist and a technician and they are hard to come by. Even if you find one, you should understand what they are doing. At the same time, whenever you hire a pro, let them do what they do. That's why you hire them.
SO decide which road you are going to take ahead of time. Find somebody good and let them do what they do best, or learn it yourself and bring somebody who can act as a gaffer, doing the set ups that you show them.
But educate yourself about everything. IMHO, a good filmmaker has a working knowledge of all aspects of what it takes to make a film
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Barry and Jim have some good advice - get a gaffer (sounds like what you need) to help or hang out at your local film school and find out who's got experience and is willing to help.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Some good points so far. Thanks.

Yeah, the problem is I've never worked with a DP before. So I'm nervous about putting the look of my movie (which, in this movie, is one of the most important aspects) in someone else's hands.

(one example) I'm watching the new star wars DVD documentary, and there was this little sequence where George tried to put a light somewhere and the DP was like 'whoa whoa whoa, take it easy there son. That's not your job. You tell me what you want and I'll do my best to get it for you.'

Another example is the infamous DP in the first season of Project Greenlight, who jilted the shot during a bad pan to make sure they wouldn't use it in editing. That's the kind of person I'm trying to avoid.

It's not that I'm not collaborative. I am. And I don't think film school is a bad thing at all (Film School, the series, on tonight, is one of the best shows on TV!). It's just that I've found (and yes, I went to film school for a year) that what they teach you there isn't always applicable to a real life low-budget shoot.

Anyway, the shoot would be for 1 month in February 2005 in the Los Angeles and surrounding areas. I would pay probably around 1000 dollars for the job. More depending on what equipment you have. If this still interests you, let me know!

thanks again,
chris
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Why would you want to hire a DP for $1000+-, when you obviously won't listen to his opinion.
If you went to a film school, even a bad one, you should know why to use a DP.

Shoot your film yourself, and learn why there are such things as DP's.

btw...you won't find a DP, even a bad one for $1000, you'll just find someone who wants $1000.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

wow, I didn't know how feisty people could be on this list.

rrreowww!
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

So you want to start at the top (directing)...the only place to go from the top is down.
Get some work on other peoples projects as an intern or PA with real practicing professionals. Watch and learn how it's done. 99% of the pros in this business did it that way. The gaffers, DP's soundo's directors, producers all worked there way up and learned a great deal along the way.
As a DP, I'm not going to have somebody that is very inexperienced tell me how to shoot most of the work, it just doesn't make sense. I do take plenty of input from producers and directors but they know what they are doing and so it works well as a two way street. They also take my input into account when appropriate.
As for the guy that messed up the shot on purpose, he doesn't want something that is not up to his standards going out to the public for all to see. He has a reputation to protect.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Obviously we have a cross section of people who frequent this site. A working pro is going to feel differently about this then somebody that has only a dream, an idea and a camera. Just for the record, I am the latter.

Depending on where you live, finding a DP might be easier, but expensive. Or it could be impossible to even find one if you live in the boonies. Just ask around where you are. Ultimately, I'd be prepared to light it yourself, with an extra pair of hands to help.

As far as a DP's purpose, I agree that they are a valuable member of the team, and a good one gets the film a great look. But if you are the filmmaker, you have a vision and there is nothing wrong with trying to find somebody with the technical knowledge to bring that to life. It's your dream , C.G. Find a way to make it happen. Enthusiasm isn't a substitute for experience. But sometimes it's even better.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

I also don't understand why all the bashing. I study film and one of the areas I am seing with more depht, specializing is photography. I'd gladly work in such a project if I lived around.

Chris, your reluctance to get a cinematographer is unacceptable. A DP is not someone that appears in the set on time and start throwing lights. A DP is a crewmember working for you. You cast him for his style the same you would an actor, and talk to him, sequence by sequence, what is the intended mood. He will come with ideas, concepts, that YOU will have to approve. And after that you'll have to trust him, and if you know nothing about lighting, you really should. Now, it seems that you are confident in your idea - witch is good - and really want to hire a talented cinematographer, and not a beginner like yourself. I say that if the idea is so good, you have room to have a beginner DP and still have a great movie. If you take everything to your hands, it will make things a lot more difficult. Takl in advance and explain you ideas. maybe he will give you his contribution and get your specifics even better. Remember. You might be surprised to find out your ideas are not the best (I constantly am...) and just be thankful to have someone around that made that point before you went for it...
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

This thread is interesting, for both good and bad reasons, but I am curious, as (with any luck) I'll be in a similar (but not the same) situation soon-ish.

What -is- the street rate for a good cinematographer, and would someone give me nice definitions so that I can completely understand the distinction between

the director, the first a.d., the d.o.p, and a gaffer?

I live in Gainesville, Florida. Our film community thrives not.

Phil
p.s. or at least not where I can see it.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Sigh...

Just put an AD out, start interviewing, narrow it down ot the final few and then pick someone who agree to your criteria.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Depends on the job being done. For a decently-budgeted television commercial, the cinematographer might command $2500/day. For a low-budget indie film, that same cinematographer might agree to work for $400/day, or as low as $100/day if they really like the project. Most of the guys in Vegas command around $800-$1000/day.

Director: visionary, responsible for every creative aspect of the film. Should thoroughly understand the theme, the vision, the goal. The director is the artist who brings the film to life.

First A.D. is an assistant director who is, quite literally, an assistant to the director. Has no directing responsibility, instead the 1st AD is responsible for scheduling, making shot lists, keeping the crew on track, wrangling the actors, filling out SAG paperwork, all that stuff.

The Director of Photography is one of the department heads under the director. DP is responsible for all things related to photographing the scene, including lighting, shot composition, etc. On bigger projects the DP can have a staff of three or four, including 1st AC, 2nd AC and Camera Operator. Also supervises the grip & electric dept.

Gaffer = head of the electric department, and is frequently the person handling lighting under the direction and supervision of the DP.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

I guess I should follow up: those are the "real" definitions. In the indie film world, the DP is the guy who does *all* the work... ;D
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

First of all, thanks again for the input. I think the best advice is to find a gaffer and shoot the movie myself. Or interview a lot of DPs and see if there's anyone who fits my rather *skewed* definition of what a DP is.

As far as some other posts, here's an example of *exactly* the kind of mindset I'm looking to avoid. From a poster:

clipped:
"As for the guy that messed up the shot on purpose, he doesn't want something that is not up to his standards going out to the public for all to see. He has a reputation to protect."

Why stop at the DP? If you're a gaffer and you realize during a shot that you forgot to add a light that would've made the scene prettier, should you throw a c-stand into the frame so you can protect your reputation? How bout the set designer? If they think 'hmm, this shot would look better with a couch', why not bring it in mid-shot? A make-up person? Throw your mascara at the actresse's face until they're forced to yell cut. Even the production assistant has a reputation to uphold. He has to pay the rent right? So if he forgot to get that granola bar for Brad Pitt, who really really needed it, like, "right now", well by golly he should be able to run into the shot and give it to him! Everybody has a reputation to uphold. But ultimately it's the director's film and he should decide these things.

The sad thing is, that while a lot of people preach 'collaboration' and 'compromise' when it comes to making a film, most of these people are just looking out for themselves.

Then again, maybe this is the way it should be. (ha ha)

thanks again, chris
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

And don't let your enthusiasm wane. Just because you can't find or afford a "real" DP, doesn't mean there isn't somebody out there with a little more experience than you, who is willing to help out. Above all else, persevere.
 
Re: any good DPs in the house?

Barry, do you ever get sick of people thanking you? I started to write "Thanks Barry" but then I realized you have a couple hundred of those lying around...what to get for the person that has everything and all that... at any rate, Thanks, seriously. With any luck some person will recruit you for their big billion dollar film opus and your karma will be complete.

(with any more luck that person will be me)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top