Antialiasing

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Hey All. Am I the only one out there that feels the DVX100A isn't all what it's cracked up to be? Grant it, this camera is awsome in so many ways but the biggest complaint I have is the antialiasing around objects (Note especialy in highlights). I seem to see it most when shooting text and copy. Plus, this camera also likes too ring in complex objects such as brick walls and window blinds. I shot a test on a street corner in 24p advanced mode and was very disapointed in the results reguarding this matter. A Simple thing like a street sign had jagged edges all around it. Am I the only one who can see this? I shot a short last may with the XL1S and didn't have this problem at all. The project was amazing and most thought it was shot on film. I must say the DX100 is very nice and I'm looking to buy one but if this is one of the flaws, I think I will probably move to the XL1S. Maybe there are settings in the camera I haven't tweeked correctly. If anyone out there has an opinion on this, please post somthing.

Thanks
Steve
 
Re: Antialiasing

Did you make sure that your "Detail" settings were low? I normally set it to -4, theres just enough edge enhancement to make the picture seem sharper, without actually being noticeably "there". I've used an XL1s before, but it doesn't give me as good results as my good ol' DVX.

I haven't noticed any problems with the edges of my images...It's the most filmic footage I've seen from a prosumer DV cam!
 
Re: Antialiasing

Mike: Thanks for the quick responce. I shot a series of test and found that knocking the detail down does help alot. Plus, after reading massive amounts of posts, 24pN is realy the way to go as apposed to 24A. I thinks that might of been a little bit of the problem as well. Tuff dission on XL1S or DVX. The only thing tipping me away from DVX is the lens. Tuff to narrow your depth of field when you have a short lens.

Again, thanks for the info. In fact, thanks to everyone out there. All your input has been most helpfull!
 
Re: Antialiasing

No prob!

But, my two cents: get the DVX, if its a choice between it or the XL1s.

I am biased, owning a DVX...but I own it over the XL1 for a reason! ;)
 
Re: Antialiasing

Well Mike... can I ask what those reasons might be? Do they outway the lens issue? And John... WOW.. stepping down? Do you realy feel that strongly about it? I know this topic has been exhuasted time and time again but I don't want to start some sort of debate either. I realy just want to know who likes what camera and why. Funny, this post didn't start out this way but what the hell. Oh..Elvis.. your not the only one I've heard this XL2 story from. Does anyone think it's true?

Later
Steve
 
Re: Antialiasing

Well, if it were not true why would both the DVX100A and the DVC30 be released before they could be shown at NAB?  Especially the DVX30.

Zero chance Canon will not be releasing a 24P camera at NAB.

-Rodger
 
Re: Antialiasing

[quote author=Steve Bec link=board=Events;num=1076894210;start=0#6 date=02/15/04 at 19:55:38]And John...I know this topic has been exhuasted time and time again...[/quote]

Yeah it has!
 
Re: Antialiasing

[quote author=marjamar link=board=Events;num=1076894210;start=0#7 date=02/15/04 at 20:04:12]
Zero chance Canon will not be releasing a 24P camera at NAB.

-Rodger[/quote]

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying: you're saying that Canon absolutely WILL be releasing a 24P camera two months from now, right?

I'd take that bet. People have been clamoring for an XL2 since 1998. Canon's rebates are a good sign that a replacement is coming, but if Canon wants 24P, they'll have to go back to Panasonic for the chips. And I think there's not a tiny shot in Hades that Panasonic will give 'em to them this time. Panasonic's won the game, they're not going to give back the lead.

People keep talking about a 24P, 16:9 XL2. Panasonic is the only company with 1/3" 24P CCD's. According to Chris Hurd, Canon can't make CCD's. There is no such thing as a 16x9-shaped CCD in 1/3" or smaller (even the JVC HD1/HD10 camera apparently has a 4:3 CCD!)

'Tain't gonna happen.

In fact, I'll bet $25 that there will be NO XL2 announced at NAB. But if there is one, I'll bet fifty bucks that it WILL NOT have 24P and I'll bet $100 it WILL NOT have a native 16:9 CCD (unless we're talking one of those megapixel subsampling jobs, like the PV-DV953 and PDX10).

I personally think Canon would be insane to try to enter the DV/24P market now. They should wait until they have an HDV camera ready. And they certainly won't have one this soon. They may announce something, but it'll be a good year before it's on the market. (Of course, Panasonic announced the DVX a good 7 months before it was on the market, so that kind of thing isn't unprecedented).
 
Re: Antialiasing

I think most manufacturers will be announcing a HDV camera to compete against the JVC. Give me HDV @ 24p and now we're talking...

Michael
 
Re: Antialiasing

I quit gambling over 30 years ago while in the Air Force and don't plan on starting back anytime soon, but I my opinion canon has no choice.  

When Panasonic showed the DVX100 at WEVA in 2002, I believe this caught Canon resting on its XL1 so to speak.  I don't believe Canon has remained asleep since then.  

Do you actually think Panasonic is the only possible manufacture to source 24P chips from?  May have been true, but I really doubt that *everyone* who is or would like to manufacture at 24P camera is relying on the good graces of Panasonic to produce 24P chips for them, or if they are, the ability to buy these chips has been under formal contractual agreements with Panasonic for some time.  

1 Chip, 3 Chip or something else I don't know.  I just know Canon won't suck hind tit any longer without at least throwing its *24P camera lens cap* into the ring ;D.

As for your 25, 50 and 100 bucks, better hold on to 'em.  You may want to invest in a new "B" (maybe "A") camera in a few months.  I bought the DVX100A believing full well the XL2 would be out at NAB this year, in fact I counted on it.  Nature videography is tough enough with long lenses, and some aspects of it would be impossible with the DVX100 alone.  Canon will have to do some pretty fancy dancing to take over 1st place from the DVX100 for me, but I have no doubts if they do what they did with the XL1 but in either 24P or 24P HD, It won't be an awfully long time before I'll buy one.

-Rodger
 
Re: Antialiasing

Oh, I'm sure most manufacturers will be announcing new HDV cameras. Just not sure it'll be at this particular NAB. I think we're at least a year away.

The Internet moves very quickly, but camera manufacturers (especially Canon) do not. Just because some people are asking about it doesn't mean it'll happen soon.

As for will Panasonic be the only 24P CCD supplier... well, as of now, they are. If someone has to develop a new CCD as well as a new camera to go around it, that's going to take time and R&D and there's just no way that any sane company would invest that kind of money into a format that is "supposedly" going to be eclipsed by HDV.

I don't see any other 24P DV cameras being introduced. Ever. Unless it's by Panasonic, who can amortize the cost of developing the 24P CCD across a new camera platform.

I do not believe Sony will ever release a 24P DV camera. MPEG-IMX maybe, but not DV. And I don't believe Canon will ever release a 24P DV camera.

Any potential XL2 will be HDV -- any other choice is just silly. As such, it will be 16:9. But it won't be 24P because HDV isn't 24P (unless some enterprising manufacturer implements 24P the same way Panasonic did, with pulldown, into a 60i spec, provided Panasonic didn't patent that, which they may have). And there won't be an XL2 this year.

Canon, care to make me eat my words? (If they do, we all win).
 
Re: Antialiasing

I don't think anyone is going to have to eat any words. All of us are speculating based on what we know, believe we know, and hope we know. What it really boils down to is whether or not Canon feels it is now taking a back seat to Panasonic in what it once thought of as its own domain. And if they do, how much is it really hurting. This will be the deciding factor in what Canon will ultimately do. One thing I can guarantee is they WANT the market share back that Panasonic TOOK AWAY! If in their infinite wisdom they believe this will come to them by way of a 24p DV or HDV, or some other format, well see. My scope still say's Canon, 24p and in-camera 16:9 at NAB this year.

I've been a business man all of my adult life, and if there is one thing this has taught me for sure, it's that you can't know anything for sure. As soon as you reach that point where you feel you've arrived, something, or someone will be there waiting for you to slap you down, show you the door, pull the rug out, (insert favorite trite saying here ;D), but it always happens sooner or later. My hope is that it doesn't happen to me here ;D, but if so then at least I'll be giving some good people here the satisfaction of saying "I told you so", eh!

-Rodger
 
Re: Antialiasing

Hey Rodger,

I totally agree with everything you just said (other than Canon introducing the new camera this NAB, of course).

The thing I factor in is, Canon and Sony are still stuck in the mindset of the 80's and 90's... i.e., someone up the chain says "let's build this" and then they put it on the market, and demand that people buy it. Whether it's what the people want or not, doesn't seem to matter -- it's what they wanted to build, and so now they say "here, buy this from us." Witness the PD170. Witness Sony's relentlessness in trying to impose its "One And Only" philosphy on us, pushing proprietary formats and proprietary recording mechanisms, thinking that by the strength of their name alone they can corral us into using only their products.

Panasonic seems to be the ONLY company in this game that is saying "okay, what do you want, and let's see if we can build that." Jan Crittenden was a regular on the old DV-L list years and years ago, and she knows -- we used to lambaste Panasonic for this exact same mentality. They decided to make DVCPRO gear that wasn't firewire-capable. What kind of thinking is that? They decided to make their PAL system incompatible to everyone else's, by using 4:1:1 color sampling. What kind of thinking was that? So we let her have it. The response? She said "okay, what do you guys want?" And we told her. And Panasonic listened, and they listened intently, and they built it. And the rest is history. Steve and Jan and Stuart have been all over the boards, listening and responding and refining. Who could ever have imagined that the DVX would be updated so soon?

And Canon? Year after year after year they trot out the same stuff. Nobody cares. This year at DVExpo had to be the lowest point for them -- the Panasonic booth was swarmed, even the Sony booth was fairly busy, even JVC had visitors, but Canon's booth was a ghost town. There they were, with their big banner advertising the XL1s. Sheesh, get a clue guys! The only traffic they had was because ZGC was sharing their booth, showing the mini35, and people would wander in to see that.

Does Canon need to respond? Of course. The question is, do they really understand that? And, will they respond? Or do they think their $500 rebate is enough of a response? That's the question. Have they changed their corporate mindset yet? That's the big question.

Or, do any of us know what we're talking about? Maybe they're selling plenty of XL1's to wedding shooters, and are content to leave the forums and the babble to us DVX users. Maybe they're smarter than all of us, and are making a small fortune on each XL1 they manage to sell, because the costs have been completely amortized...

Well, no matter. I still think that until we see evidence of some change in thinking over there, there will be no new camera to compete with the DVX. And I think there will never be a 24P DV camera to compete with the DVX. The new Canon will be HDV, and it's too soon to have a new HDV camera ready, so it'll be 2005 before you see the new HDV XL2.
 
Re: Antialiasing

First off to answer Steve's original question.... Steve I think you are importing the footage incorrectly, or else just outputting it from the camera onto a TV to monitor. I say this because you are saying you can see the image quality differences between 24pA and N, when there isnt a quality difference, just a pulldown difference so you may be seeing the interlaced fields on your playback screen. You need to pull the footage into an NLE that supports both Pulldowns and then judge.


Second.. I will match Barry's bet that Canon wont be releasing an XL2 anytime soon. I believe that they were close 2 years ago, but once the DVX100 came out with 24p, I believe they scrapped it as what they were working on just couldn't compete. I think that Canon has now given up on the format, and is jumping onboard with JVC and co. in the HD-on-MiniDV coalation.
I do think that the XL2 may come out at the 2005 Nab, with HD 16x9, if they use three chips or only 1 who knows, as 1 chip technology is coming pretty close to the 3CCD prisms.  

I hung out for a bit at DVExpo at the PS forum, and noticed alot of questions like what OTHER cameras will the adapter work on. I dont think people are buying XL1's anymore, Sure they are being rented, but to walk in the store and buy one just doesnt make sense anymore.. sure you can use supper fast lenses, but the CCD is just too old and the resolution loss isnt worth getting half-ass shallow DOF. We shot a short 2 weeks ago with the XL1 (yeah I know) and the mini35 adapter, and in our camera tests we put on some anamorphics.. probally was the worse thing I ever looked at. We did end up using some Arri primes, and they did help, but you can only push that camera so much.

I dont know how upset Canon is.. I mean they definately had thier day (years) before the DVX100, it was the only real choice if you wanted to make a film on MiniDv. I think the Rebate is more of a "wholly-crap-we-gotta-get-rid-of-the-10,000-cameras-in-our-warehouse-before-they-go-extinct" thing instead of a new product announcement.

Who knows though.. The release of the GL2 was a big surprise a few years ago, so who knows.
 
Re: Antialiasing

Well everyone, I think this has been a pretty well informative post. I have to agree with Jarred on the whole cannon thing. And Jarred, thanks for addressing some key issues for me on the DVX. I Am watching this footage straight out of the camera onto a 13" Production monitor and I still see stair stepping all over. I've shot extensive tests with a variety of detail settings (thin and thick settings too) and still see these jagged edges and ringing in complex objects. Maybe this is just the way the camera is and you have to take the good with bad.

Steve
 
Re: Antialiasing

make sure that what you are seeing is not inerlacing Steve.. remember 24pA is meant to be used in a progressive enviroment.  
 
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