FS7: another Sony Look or not thread

Ben Scott said:
Which is the bit that is complete bollocks because no other camera on the market has that issue. If anything, accurately telling your camera what colour 'white' is before applying a LUT to it should vastly simplify the transformation.
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Cine EI is meant to work like film.. to give you a digital negative.. with max DR from the sensor .. 14 stops .. film stocks are only Daylight or Tungsten .. WB tweaks are to done in post in Cine EI.. if you want to auto WB just shoot in custom.. I cant see the problem.. just shoot in custom if you want WB and gain.. ?

Leni.. but Pana ENG camera,s had a different look from Sony .. both in REC 709..
 
Donny 123 said:
Cine EI is meant to work like film.. to give you a digital negative.. with max DR from the sensor .. 14 stops .. film stocks are only Daylight or Tungsten .. WB tweaks are to done in post in Cine EI.. if you want to auto WB just shoot in custom.. I cant see the problem.. just shoot in custom if you want WB and gain.. ?
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Yes I understand HOW it works after using the camera exclusively in Cine-EI for nearly a year but WHY? It is NOT film. In areas like this (as opposed to outright picture quality) it is far far superior to working with film. It is an arbitrary limitation. Sony barely even listen to their existing captive customer base of video cameramen when designing cameras or UIs, why on Earth would they decide to start doing just this one this exactly how film cameras did it, counter-intuitively suddenly trying to to get film DOPs on board by artificially limiting them in a way that Red, Arri and Canon don't? How would it impact DR to have white balance available properly? Didn't see it affect Red footage much.

I have my workflow and way of working down fine, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't call something absurd when it obviously is.
 
Ben Scott said:
Yes I understand HOW it works after using the camera exclusively in Cine-EI for nearly a year but WHY? It is NOT film. In areas like this (as opposed to outright picture quality) it is far far superior to working with film. It is an arbitrary limitation. Sony barely even listen to their existing captive customer base of video cameramen when designing cameras or UIs, why on Earth would they decide to start doing just this one this exactly how film cameras did it, counter-intuitively suddenly trying to to get film DOPs on board by artificially limiting them in a way that Red, Arri and Canon don't? How would it impact DR to have white balance available properly? Didn't see it affect Red footage much.

Arri is the same in Cine EI mode.. C300 log is not a log curve.. haven't used RED.. please see below for the techie stuff

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" If you add linear corrections (WB is a linear gain adjustment) to log space gamma you will introduce uneven color response across the exposure range. In addition you may introduce early clipping and reduced dynamic range in the R and B channels. Do you not think that if variable WB was so easy and beneficial that Sony would have included this for CineEI in the F5/F55, F65, F35 etc? Do you not think that if it was better that Arri would be recommending it rather than recommending only to use the presets log?"

 Log gamma has varying gain across the entire curve, so the WB gain curve must also follow that same gain curve to avoid undesireable color effects.

The Cine EI WB presets are designed to give a uniform color response across the whole of the log curve and provide YCbCr/RGB curves that follow set levels so that when you pass the signal through the corresponding LUT your signal is moved from log to linear and then once in linear space your corrections will work as expected.
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Surely you will only introduce early clipping if you are not exposing correctly for the settings you have selected on your camera. Which should be down to you. In exactly the same way that you could introduce early clipping if you burn in a LUT but still were exposing for the SLOG underneath...

Sony still haven't fixed a year old shutter bug on the FS7. They didn't bother to put a LUT on/off button on the camera (or allow you to make on assignable). Likewise they won't even let you make one of the dials assigned to headphone volume. Sony's view on what is 'better' is sometimes laughable. When I pointed out that my A7s, then the flagship camera for the stills division had light leaks with exposures over 2secs I was told that yes this was a problem and to gaffa tape all over the mount. On a £2500 brand new cutting edge camera. They're a joke.

I'm not an Alexa shooter so don't know their workflows first hand but I was under the impression they have completely adjustable white balance?
 
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Alexa/Amira have it in 100 ISO steps..and separate curves for them.. but Sony only has the one curve for 2000 ISO.. but seem Arri recommend to use the presets.. I have the F5 with hot keys (same as Arri) for quick access to functions.. my only guess is that they got the price so low for the FS7 by not having an LCD screen.. but I totally agree FS7 should have NR in cine EI.. as the F5/55 has.. Arri is a great camera .. but way more exp than the F5 let alone the FS7... so thats a bit of hard comparison .. but they both pretty damn heavy !
 
Donny 123 said:
Alexa/Amira have it in 100 ISO steps..and separate curves for them.. but Sony only has the one curve for 2000 ISO.. but seem Arri recommend to use the presets.. I have the F5 with hot keys (same as Arri) for quick access to functions.. my only guess is that they got the price so low for the FS7 by not having an LCD screen.. but I totally agree FS7 should have NR in cine EI.. as the F5/55 has.. Arri is a great camera .. but way more exp than the F5 let alone the FS7... so thats a bit of hard comparison .. but they both pretty damn heavy !
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Amira has variable wb in 100 iso steps? What? As for the rest, price doesn't come into it. The FS7 shares a colour science with the F5 and F55, just like the Scarlet does with the Epic.

FS7 has plenty of assignable buttons but they are artificially limited which functions you can assign to them.

It's simply how Sony is and what they do. See the F5 4k upgrade debacle as an example of them being full of it.
 
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Ben Scott said:
Amira has variable wb in 100 iso steps? What? As for the rest, price doesn't come into it. The FS7 shares a colour science with the F5 and F55, just like the Scarlet does with the Epic.

FS7 has plenty of assignable buttons but they are artificially limited which functions you can assign to them.

It's simply how Sony is and what they do. See the F5 4k upgrade debacle as an example of them being full of it.
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For as long as I can remember Sony have been sh1t. They have always been scared rigid of cannibalising their upper camera lines which made the FS7 spec and pricing all the more surprising. But when you get the camera you understand the little tricks they've done to not make it as good as it could be.

Oh, I don't think the shutter bug is a bug. I've encountered the 25p 1/25 reset on Sony cameras in the past. I bought (and returned) the horrid HVR-V1 which had the most ghastly 25p mode which looked like someone had run a photoshop oil paint filter over the image. 50i looked great but 25p was rogered on purpose. It's in Sony's DNA to play this way.
 
I find it all very odd.

They actually need to steal someone from Arri or even Apple to help them learn how to design a UI and menu system. It's like the olden days sometimes.
 
Nirv said:
For as long as I can remember Sony have been sh1t. They have always been scared rigid of cannibalising their upper camera lines which made the FS7 spec and pricing all the more surprising. But when you get the camera you understand the little tricks they've done to not make it as good as it could be.

Oh, I don't think the shutter bug is a bug. I've encountered the 25p 1/25 reset on Sony cameras in the past. I bought (and returned) the horrid HVR-V1 which had the most ghastly 25p mode which looked like someone had run a photoshop oil paint filter over the image. 50i looked great but 25p was rogered on purpose. It's in Sony's DNA to play this way.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say the shutter bug is left intentionally, but I would agree with the general idea of market segmentation of product and to some elements of slight of hand. However, I for one am pleased to receive FS7 crumbs falling from above without being asked to pay big money to supp from the top table (gosh, how's that for mixing the metaphor?).

Claire
 
Ha, they're like the nestle of camera makers. A terrible company, but they do make FS7s / Kit Kats, so what ya gonna do?
 
Ben Scott said:
Ha, they're like the nestle of camera makers. A terrible company, but they do make FS7s / Kit Kats, so what ya gonna do?
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Nestle (pronounced Nessle...lay for some other readers - can't seem to get a French language accute E on this forum) .

I like it Ben, just chocolately perfect. And I do like Kit Kats. But they do appear to have reduced the amount of chocolate on the standard Kit Kat bar, and it does taste less like chocolate since they took over our beloved Cadbury.

I think I will start a thread about chocolate?

"Nestle Chocolate Is Not The Same As Cadbury Chocolate" Discuss...

Claire :)
 
Well this is it... It's like they've artificially limited how good a kit kat can be, in order to push people towards the more expensive Kit Kat chunky which while powerful, is a bit heavy for a lot of jobs.
 
Ben,

Crikey, I was just saying that last week to one of my clients.

Do you have a special Chunky Bar Kit Kat rig? I find the new wrapper quite difficult to handle of late. Personally, I think this is intended, as to move me torwads their less featured Aero Bar (and you've still got to upgrade to Chocolate Ware Version 3.1).

I'm done with Nestle. I'm going to Black Magic Chocolates instead.

Claire
 
Black Magics can be very heavy after a while. Sometimes you have to have a Time Out.

Safe to say I think we have broken the thread :)
 
What an ad! I see the Milk Tray man's kept a low profile since being released after he broke into all those women's houses...
 
Ben Scott said:
Safe to say I think we have broken the thread :)
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Quite enjoying this.... continue on.
To jump in a bit on the Sony thing... from my perspective, having owned Canon, Panasonic and having shot with many others... I do find Sony quite lacking in passing along information. Was never a dvx'r or other forum type until my purchase of the FS7. Just could not get enough info from Sony directly... so am always thankful for those who continue to share knowledge and hope I can add my two cents occasionally to help others as well.
 
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