FS5: Another FS5 Macro Blocking Test

Doug Jensen

Doug Jensen

Carbonite Member
I'm wondering if anyone can see macro blocking in this picture profile I'm working on? I know it's not zoomed in to 400% like some other people's tests, but I don't see the point in that. I could probably upload the 4K files if someone wanted them.

Workflow:
Shot with XAVC QFHD 2160/24p 100Mbps codec using the Sony FS5
Clip 1: ISO 1000
Clip 2: ISO 3200
Clip 3: ISO 20,000
The intensity of the LED lighting was dimmed down (quite a bit!) to maintain the approximate same exposure as the ISO was progressively raised.


Brought into Premiere Pro 1080P timeline -- with the 4KUHD clips scaled to fit
(No corrections, filters, or grading applied in post)

Exported to ProRes 1080P
Uploaded to Vimeo

PASSWORD: FS5

http://vimeo.com/150498170
 
I can't see any macro blocking, it looks very clean to me (except of course 20,000 ISO is noisy) I did view it on a 11" MacBook though.

Blacks look quite crushed or is that just the photograph with crushed blacks.

Nice and clean though.
 
Looks clean to me also Doug. I see no macro blocking, and the 20,000 is obviously noisy, but that's not what you are testing.
 
Thanks for uploading, Doug. Nice profile.

I most easily see it on the ocean horizon on the left side of the frame when you start moving the camera after the switch to ISO3200. The artifacts aren't as distinct because of the downsampling from 4K to HD, but I can see it across the frame on horizontal lines.

FS5artifacts1.jpg

There's a spiky/blocky streaking that show up on the horizontal lines in the frame. In motion it's clearer because it kinda randomly bubbles up out of the soft lines when moving the camera. Check it out in 4K on a 4K monitor, or 1:1 pixel on an HD monitor and it'll be much clearer.
 
I'm sure Sony will correct this ASAP from all the outcry, Unless its hardware and then they should just drop the price - coz it just aint usable in 4K for professional productions.
 
We need your help to get Sony to fix this issue, Doug. This is not about pixel peeping, or Sony bashing, or improper use of the camera. The FS5 has a fundamental image processing glitch in 4K, and us owners want to have it acknowledged and fixed. Any way you can help through any Sony contacts would be greatly appreciated!
 
maxjw said:
We need your help to get Sony to fix this issue, Doug. This is not about pixel peeping, or Sony bashing, or improper use of the camera. The FS5 has a fundamental image processing glitch in 4K, and us owners want to have it acknowledged and fixed. Any way you can help through any Sony contacts would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Looking at Doug's test seems to indicate that the problem is winding up the gain and nothing more sinister. I don't have a lot of experience with the FS7 in Custom mode nor with high ISOs as I'm stuck at 2000 in CineEI mode but I've seen some blotchy horrible noise in the blacks too.

I will say that the video did have a rather peculiar judder almost as though it was shot with a 90 deg shutter or in the old days of interlace when you got the field order wrong, my FS7 in 25p 180 deg does not judder like that. Of course that could be Vimeo but I thought I'd mention it.
 
The issue is mostly lost in the vertical blur and judder. If you want to make the issue more clearly visible then you will need to tilt the camera smoothly and more slowly, probably at a 1/5th to a 1/10th that of the video. If you want it to be really apparent you should also try defocusing (while tilting). Obviously this isn't what you would normally want to do but this makes the issue most visible. Also it will be more apparent in some areas of the scene that others, probably around the color checker chart and between the top of the picture frame and the wall. I've seen the issue in all picture profiles/gammas at a high enough ISO. I still think it is better to test this when the camera is configured to show gain rather than iso. In that configuration the issue always appears when +9 db gain (or more) is selected regardless of picture profile/gamma.

I'm optimistic that Sony will be able to fix this. Giving them the best clearest information can only help them to resolve it more quickly.

For anyone worried about this issue appearing in their shots, knowing what causes it gives you the best opportunity to avoid it. And I think most of the time it will be really easily to avoid. If you don't shoot in 4k it won't appear. If you don't use higher iso/gain settings it won't appear. If there is no smooth vertical motion, it either won't appear or will be lost in the motion. It requires long horizontal lines/changes in contrast to be at all apparent - my take on all this - avoid shooting window/picture/monitor frames with small amounts of vertical motion at 4k in high isos and you will probably be fine.
 
MarkN said:
The issue is mostly lost in the vertical blur and judder. If you want to make the issue more clearly visible then you will need to tilt the camera smoothly and more slowly, probably at a 1/5th to a 1/10th that of the video. If you want it to be really apparent you should also try defocusing (while tilting). Obviously this isn't what you would normally want to do but this makes the issue most visible. Also it will be more apparent in some areas of the scene that others, probably around the color checker chart and between the top of the picture frame and the wall. I've seen the issue in all picture profiles/gammas at a high enough ISO. I still think it is better to test this when the camera is configured to show gain rather than iso. In that configuration the issue always appears when +9 db gain (or more) is selected regardless of picture profile/gamma.

I'm optimistic that Sony will be able to fix this. Giving them the best clearest information can only help them to resolve it more quickly.

For anyone worried about this issue appearing in their shots, knowing what causes it gives you the best opportunity to avoid it. And I think most of the time it will be really easily to avoid. If you don't shoot in 4k it won't appear. If you don't use higher iso/gain settings it won't appear. If there is no smooth vertical motion, it either won't appear or will be lost in the motion. It requires long horizontal lines/changes in contrast to be at all apparent - my take on all this - avoid shooting window/picture/monitor frames with small amounts of vertical motion at 4k in high isos and you will probably be fine.
Click to expand...

so... don't shoot anything? Almost any interior shot will have straight horizontal lines in it of some kind. Awfully ridiculous to expect people to just "avoid shooting" that stuff. This is an issue with the camera. Sony has failed to address a whole slew of issues in the FS7 since it was released over a year ago. In fact, their V3 software keeps getting pushed back. You *might* luck out since this is a brand new camera and they'll maybe want to cover their asses (they managed to get the first FS7 update out quickly) but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
XAVC-L is a very compressed codec, but in HD at 50mbps 10bit 422 is should not have this macro blocking or gradation issue. I've ordered this camera already and am now very concerned.

I wonder how the FS7 recorded in XAVC-L compares to the FS5's. Anyone able to do a test on this?
 
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Also wondering why someone like Mr Chapman who is Sony Certified Expert (ICE) have not picked up these issues in HD. Not putting any blame on him but does this seem to be more of a quality control issue where some cameras have it and others don't?

Im still very interested in how the FS7 recorded in XAVC-L compares to the FS5.
 
BeeHop said:
XAVC-L is a very compressed codec, but in HD at 50mbps 10bit 422 is should not have this macro blocking or gradation issue. I've ordered this camera already and am now very concerned.

I wonder how the FS7 recorded in XAVC-L compares to the FS5's. Anyone able to do a test on this?
Click to expand...
+1
Anyone that had a chance working with FS7 will tell you straight ahead that using XAVC-L in 4K makes sense only when you're very short on media space. It's very compressed, heavy on cpu etc. HD in that regards is ok(ish). That's why when I saw the specs, that FS5 is 4K XAVC-L only I totally lost interested in this camera and convinced me that FS7 was a good choice. Much more capable camera at not a lot more money the fs5.
 
Morton Molyneux said:
He just did.
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2016/01/my-response-to-all-the-fs5-artefact-issue-complainers/
Click to expand...

First off I don't see this as people 'complaining' - how condescending! Its reporting as pro users are 'concerned'. YES we all know the FS5's 4K at 8bit 420 is highly compressed and not up to the fS7 its understandable. Maybe, but not really acceptable. But not being able to turn Noise Reduction off is BS. The FS5 ia a AU$8400 camera US$5600.

You can turn NR off on the C100. If NR is causing this problem then it should be easily fixed by allowing a firmware update to able NR off no?

Also there was no mention of the FS5's HD problems that people are reporting 'Not Complaining" Alister !

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/sony-fs5-codec-problems-and-4k-ripped-edges-bug/


 
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