Analog Output Quality?

P

prosckes

New member
I'm thinking about buying an HVX-200, but I'm curious about the quality of the analog outputs. If I were to shoot directly to HD-D5 via the AJA HD10A converter, would I get a better picture? Because I would avoid additional compression artifacts that would be introduced when going to P2 or external firewire (which both utilize the DVCPROHD codec).

I realize that the signal would go through an additional A to D conversion, and the HD-D5 has a very gentle 4:1 compression. But, in theory, there should be fewer compression artifacts.

Normally, the compression artifacts of DVCPROHD would not be a big issue. But, I'm going to be shooting a lot of green screen for compositing. And I know from experience that the compression in HDCAM and DV can be very hard to deal with.

Thanks,
Paul
 
The short answer is yes. I've found DVCPRO 100 to be about equal to HDCAM recorded to tape for doing green-screen. About the same amount of blocking, etc. Pulling the compression out of the loop by recording live component will remove that hurdle.

However, I'f you don't have a handy D5 deck you'll need to rent one. If you rent it, and all the other gear it's time to think about renting a Varicam or CineAlta... as the HVX will be the weakest link in the chain. While it can make 1080i and P, it's not in the same league as the big boys. Very soft compared, and all things being equal, if you're concerned enough about the picture quality to pull in an uncompressed workflow, you're probably not going to be happy with the softness of the HVX in 1080.

Of course if it's easy and cheap for you to record out to D5, then that's a different story.

Personally, I'd wait and see some results from the early adopters doing more significant tests and projects to see how things go native P2 recording. Or just do a day rental and give it a try. It may be 90% of where you need it to be without the complications of live recording. My inital concern was that the edging/sharpness would be too high, and that the lens would prevent accurate mattes. Fortunately, neither is the case, and the HVX passes with flying colors.

Just some random, near worthless thoughts... :)

Jim Arthurs
 
Jim Arthurs said:
The short answer is yes. I've found DVCPRO 100 to be about equal to HDCAM recorded to tape for doing green-screen. About the same amount of blocking, etc. Pulling the compression out of the loop by recording live component will remove that hurdle.

However, I'f you don't have a handy D5 deck you'll need to rent one. If you rent it, and all the other gear it's time to think about renting a Varicam or CineAlta... as the HVX will be the weakest link in the chain. While it can make 1080i and P, it's not in the same league as the big boys. Very soft compared, and all things being equal, if you're concerned enough about the picture quality to pull in an uncompressed workflow, you're probably not going to be happy with the softness of the HVX in 1080.

Of course if it's easy and cheap for you to record out to D5, then that's a different story.

Jim Arthurs
Click to expand...

Yes, we own a D5. I guess I was wondering if it's worth it to pay an extra $1500 for the AJA converter, and to always shoot green screen while "tethered" to the D5. Naturally, I'd love to buy a Varicam, but we're really just a high-end post house that occassionally needs to shoot video elements (mostly for low-budget projects and animatics, but occasionally I want footage that's good enough to mix with film, HDCAM, etc.).

I think one big advantage of shooting to D5 at 1080p is that we can then do a realtime downconvert to SD (the D5 has some nice controls for enhancing the downconvert), thus producing a very nice SD image for keying (think of it as a poor man's super-sampling!). At least for SD work, the softness of the HVX's 1080p might become a non-issue.

BTW, I did look very carefully at the results of the recent 6 camera shootout. And while the JVC produced a very good image with nice resolution, I did notice a significant amount of compression artifacts. That, along with the half-color sampling, makes me think that it's not the best choice for green screen. Does this make the HVX-200 the best choice for green screen for under $10000? Any opinions?
 
prosckes said:
Does this make the HVX-200 the best choice for green screen for under $10000? Any opinions?
Click to expand...

I'd say so. From initial tests, the HVX shows that even without an uncompressed signal it is more than capable of producing some great green screen work.

With your D5 deck (lucky bastard) you can even improve more upon what many people condisder a great tool for greenscreen work.

:thumbup:
 
prosckes said:
Does this make the HVX-200 the best choice for green screen for under $10000? Any opinions?
Click to expand...


Great question! any takers!

i assume to question refers to both sd and hd photography.
 
prosckes said:
Does this make the HVX-200 the best choice for green screen for under $10000? Any opinions?
Click to expand...

It's the best stand alone camera for greenscreen, that's for sure.

However, if we're talking being totally tethered...I would consider renting and testing the Canon since you can go straight into your deck with HD-SDI. This is almost the perfect application for it, heck it is the perfect application for it. The Canon makes the most resolution of the 1/3" cameras. I'd rent and test them both.

As to using a D5 deck and calling it a "poor man's downconverter"... it's like some friends of mine that own a post house in Santa Monica who call their two HDCAM SR decks and color corrector combo a "poor man's grading system" for feature work... :)

Jim Arthurs
 
Jim Arthurs said:
It's the best stand alone camera for greenscreen, that's for sure.

As to using a D5 deck and calling it a "poor man's downconverter"

Jim Arthurs
Click to expand...

Actually, you're misquoting my original post.

I never said the D5 deck was a "poor man's downconverter" (it is in fact a terrific downconverter). I said that the process of downconverting 1080p HDV to SD was a way of potentially getting a super-sampled image that might rival the quality of shooting SD on a higher quality SD camera like the Panasonic SDX900, or a Sony Dbeta camera. And I'd like to try the Canon camera as well, but the fact that it doesn't capture truly progressive images (like the Sony HDR-Z1U) makes me a little nervous.

I guess testing is the only way to know for sure. I was just hoping that someone had already tried it. :)
 
Jim Arthurs said:
It's the best stand alone camera for greenscreen, that's for sure.

However, if we're talking being totally tethered...I would consider renting and testing the Canon since you can go straight into your deck with HD-SDI. This is almost the perfect application for it, heck it is the perfect application for it. The Canon makes the most resolution of the 1/3" cameras. I'd rent and test them both.

As to using a D5 deck and calling it a "poor man's downconverter"... it's like some friends of mine that own a post house in Santa Monica who call their two HDCAM SR decks and color corrector combo a "poor man's grading system" for feature work... :)

Jim Arthurs
Click to expand...

how much does a deck cost for the canon? that can accept hdsdi?
 
prosckes said:
Actually, you're misquoting my original post.
Click to expand...

The smiley I used at the end of the statement should have said it all... but no harm intended, apologies if the little story fell flat and wasn't amusing. I get the jist of your post, but was just jamming a bit on the vibe of using uber high end gear to achieve interesting results that they weren't originally intended for.

That's the problem with e-mail posts, no way to catch the intent behind the words if they aren't explicit.

Do a search for posts from Elton on this forum. You will find an example of Canon recorded HD-SDI to NLE in 24f mode. He used DVCPRO HD as a record medium, but the clip will show you how the fake 24 looks when recorded to something other than the camera native .m2t. At the end of the day, if the Canon captures more resolution in fake progressive than the real progressive camera does, what does it matter if it's fake or not? A half day rental of both side by side is still the ultimate answer.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
penfever said:
According to Chris Hurd at DVInfo.net, you can get a AJ-HD1200A for a mere $21,000.
Click to expand...

And there's some sort of HD recording deck that captures to Cineform codec for about $15,000.00... a big not so portable thing, I think... starts with a "W"... can't remember what it's called...

Jim Arthurs
 
I believe it's called the Wafian. The thing is the H1/HD-SDI has yet to be green screen tested. So I'd definitely recommend testing both first for sure.
 
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