Americans on the board...

Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=225#236 date=07/07/04 at 12:07:18]
Well, for one thing, I think the electoral vote system is a crock of **** and so do most Americans. Al Gore got the popular national vote, plus he would have won Florida if they counted all the votes... and especially if they had let the black people vote.
[/quote]

"Most Americans"? I'd love to see your source for that.

There *is* no "popular national vote." There's no national election of any kind, anywhere. There are 51 separate elections of slates of Electors.

If you think the recount in Florida was a mess, imagine recounting the whole country -- because the "popular" vote was within a slimmer margin than Florida's.

And as I said, as for "not letting" black people vote in Florida, THAT is a crock. The Civil Rights Commission itself laid that one to rest. Read their report.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=225#236 date=07/07/04 at 12:07:18]
Well, for one thing, I think the electoral vote system is a crock of **** and so do most Americans. Al Gore got the popular national vote, plus he would have won Florida if they counted all the votes... and especially if they had let the black people vote.
[/quote]

1) There was no organized effort to disenfranchise the african americans in Florida. The New York Times found most black vote nullification resulted from failure to operate the voting machines correctly, generally by failing to choose a candidate for president.

One reason black voters had more uncounted ballots, according to the study by The Washington Post and other media organizations, was that ballots in predominantly black neighborhoods were twice as likely to have no indication of any vote for president. In heavily black areas, 13 of every 1,000 ballots had no mark, compared to 6 in 1,000 in white neighborhoods.
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From: Keeting, Dan, and John Mintz "Study: Black Votes Affected Most", from the Washington Post, Tuesday, Nov. 13, 2001; Page A03.

2) If everyone hates the electoral college, why is it still law? A simple amendment, and two years it would be gone. Until then, it is the rules of the game. Claiming the rules are no fair is silly when you could negotiate a rules change before the game.

Sorry guys to continue poking the Wallaby, but often lies displace truth, and it is important that in a public forum there be something available to counteract mindless propaganda.

Now, if he claimed the Florida election was screwed up, it was, and effected both sides nearly equally. Which is why efforts have been put into place to fix it.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

"Most Americans"? I'd love to see your source for that.
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Easily most Americans. I've yet to meet an American that thinks it's a good idea! Go on, take a poll at work or school and see what people say.

And as I said, as for "not letting" black people vote in Florida, THAT is a crock.
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Come on, it's so obvious... You've probably heard all the evidence, but will never believe it.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=225#238 date=07/07/04 at 12:09:05]
That's bullshit... you may be able to say the word penis after 11PM, but you show me someone saying **** on broadcast television without getting in trouble and I'll gladly shut the **** up.

Don't you remember the hoopla after Bono said **** on TV?[/quote]

Bono said it during *primetime*. But look, I already granted that there are language restrictions on broadcast TV here that don't exist in Canada; I'm merely pointing out that they aren't absolute. Believe it, or remain in the dark. That's all the effort I want to put into that one. You're disagreeing just to disagree at this point.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#242 date=07/07/04 at 12:17:37]
Easily most Americans. I've yet to meet an American that thinks it's a good idea! Go on, take a poll at work or school and see what people say.[/quote]

That's hardly scientific. Quote me a source.

Come on, it's so obvious... You've probably heard all the evidence, but will never believe it.
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Quote a source. I've already said the Civil Rights Commission debunked it, plain as day in their report. That's not good enough for you?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

The New York Times found most black vote nullification resulted from failure to operate the voting machines correctly
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Even if that's true and they couldn't figure out how to vote, they still should have been able to get some help or better machines.

What I'm referring to is the list of felons that Florida hired a company to make. There were thousands of people wrongly put on these lists and like 75% of them were black. When they showed up to vote, they were told that they couldn't because they were a felon (which thousands weren't).

This is something that actually happened and if you want to look it up for yourself (even though it doesn't serve your political agenda) you can learn all about it.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#243 date=07/07/04 at 12:18:03]

Bono said it during *primetime*.  But look, I already granted that there are language restrictions on broadcast TV here that don't exist in Canada; I'm merely pointing out that they aren't absolute.  Believe it, or remain in the dark.  That's all the effort I want to put into that one.  You're disagreeing just to disagree at this point.
[/quote]

The issue is also much more complex than it seems, since the laws are "community standard." An LPTV station in NYC had late night hard core pornography, and the FCC could no nothing about it. The reason was the standards of New York City are different than Cleveland Ohio, and the standards for indecency are based on the standards of the community.

The main issue is who owns the air waves. In the US, legal policy has it that the common person owns the bandwidth. In Canada, it is owned by the government. In the US, since the common man owns the bandwidth, but because there are limits to how much bandwidth there is (just like there are limits to how much water is in a stream) it gets licensed to broadcasters in exchange for them agreeing to minimally serve the public. Such service includes protecting children from harmful influences, and participating in community emergency systems of communication. Thus, if the community of Cleveland wanted hard core porn in their day side programming, they could have it, as long as the majority agreed.

This is further broken down by the first amendment protecting political speech, to a lesser extent artistic speech, and to the least extent commercial speech. For example, the little know fair time for comment rule at all broadcast stations if they should participate in editorial comments. As a public resource, if they use it for politics, they must share it with others at cost.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

That's hardly scientific. Quote me a source.
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Quote yourself a source. Ask any American if they'd rather do an outright popular vote or the electoral system... and don't forget to report your results back to me ;D

Quote a source. I've already said the Civil Rights Commission debunked it, plain as day in their report. That's not good enough for you?
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No, the circumstantial evidence is abundant. I could get a jury to convict on that alone without an investigation.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#245 date=07/07/04 at 12:23:37]

Even if that's true and they couldn't figure out how to vote, they still should have been able to get some help or better machines.

What I'm referring to is the list of felons that Florida hired a company to make. There were thousands of people wrongly put on these lists and like 75% of them were black. When they showed up to vote, they were told that they couldn't because they were a felon (which thousands weren't).

This is something that actually happened and if you want to look it up for yourself (even though it doesn't serve your political agenda) you can learn all about it.[/quote]

There were *delayed* votes because of that -- but most were subsequently able to vote.

You *really* need to stop cherrypicking your information to fit your conclusions.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

There were *delayed* votes because of that -- but most were subsequently able to vote.
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Now, I'd like to ask you for a souce because I don't believe that those people got to vote. As a matter of fact not a single article or news program at the time reported that they were allowed to vote.

You *really* need to stop cherrypicking your information to fit your conclusions.
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What are you talking about? Now you're just grasping at straws.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#247 date=07/07/04 at 12:27:03]
Quote yourself a source. Ask any American if they'd rather do an outright popular vote or the electoral system... and don't forget to report your results back to me  ;D[/quote]

Eric Jimerson, Brother: Electoral College.

Mark Sheppard, Friend: Electoral College.

Don Schulz, Co-Worker: Electoral College.

Amy Eisenhuth, Friend: Electoral College.

Those were my first four -- should I go to fifteen/sixteen more?

No, the circumstantial evidence is abundant. I could get a jury to convict on that alone without an investigation.
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I know what it takes to get a jury to convict, and I'd mop the floor with you in court. Juries don't convict on "circumstantial" evidence "without an investigation." If they did, the court would throw it out as a mistrial.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=225#238 date=07/07/04 at 12:09:05]
That's bullshit... you may be able to say the word penis after 11PM, but you show me someone saying **** on broadcast television without getting in trouble and I'll gladly shut the **** up.

Don't you remember the hoopla after Bono said **** on TV?[/quote]

this is funny.. as in 1997 I was in front of a camera doing a reality show following people in the entertainment industry that happened to live in the same building (Sarah McLachlan, most of Network Records, some TV producers etc, and of course me. That was before reality tv, so it wasn't called reality at that time). It was primetime, im talking 7:00pm on CBC (think Canada's CBS) right after the news, a 30 minute show.

Anyways, In the show, some jackass cut my satelite dish cable because they thought it looked tacky on the roof of our heritage building. We had a camera crew following us 18/7 and they followed me out to the exterior where I started swearing. ****,****,Asshole was just some of the words they caught, and went straight uncensored, unbleeped, uncut onto that week's episode. Sure it made me look like a Trucker, but it was good to see that kinda thing fly.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#245 date=07/07/04 at 12:23:37]

Even if that's true and they couldn't figure out how to vote, they still should have been able to get some help or better machines.

What I'm referring to is the list of felons that Florida hired a company to make. There were thousands of people wrongly put on these lists and like 75% of them were black. When they showed up to vote, they were told that they couldn't because they were a felon (which thousands weren't).

This is something that actually happened and if you want to look it up for yourself (even though it doesn't serve your political agenda) you can learn all about it.[/quote]

The New York Times and Washington Post recounts included estimates of the half-dozen people who tried to vote and were restricted from doing so from errors in the list of felons not eligible for the vote in Florida, the bipartisan U.S. Civil Rights Commission report which you refuse to read back this up. What was recognized is that Florida's failure to track felons by Social Security number generally affected the race, but did not affect the outcome. Most people denied where felons with restored rights. There is no reason to believe just because someone is a former muderer or rapists that they are a democrat.

As for this being a factor with black voters, there is no reason to believe that being black makes one a former rapist or murder (serious felons loose their right to vote). Not sure how you get this theory, probably from misreading the issues.

In general, what was found was that the election, while not effected, had lots of human error and no organized effort to effect the voting turnout, and that the human error affected both sides. It all came out in the wash.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#250 date=07/07/04 at 12:32:15]

Eric Jimerson, Brother:  Electoral College.

Mark Sheppard, Friend:  Electoral College.

Don Schulz, Co-Worker:  Electoral College.

Amy Eisenhuth, Friend:  Electoral College.

Those were my first four -- should I go to fifteen/sixteen more?


I know what it takes to get a jury to convict, and I'd mop the floor with you in court.  Juries don't convict on "circumstantial" evidence "without an investigation."  If they did, the court would throw it out as a mistrial.
[/quote]
Ok, you guys are just weird. I don't know, were you winking and nudging them while you were asking them? I've never met anyone who prefered the electoral college. While they're there, why don't you ask them why it's better. I'm real curious on that one.

Alright buddy, I'll see you in court.

I've gotta go, Roadking why don't you keep these guys busy while I'm gone?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Jarred Land link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#251 date=07/07/04 at 12:35:58]

this is funny.. as in 1997 I was in front of a camera doing a reality show following people in the entertainment industry that happened to live in the same building (Sarah McLachlan, most of Network Records, some TV producers etc, and of course me. That was before reality tv, so it wasn't called reality at that time). It was primetime, im talking 7:00pm on CBC (think Canada's CBS) right after the news, a 30 minute show.

Anyways, In the show, some jackass cut my satelite dish cable because they thought it looked tacky on the roof of our heritage building. We had a camera crew following us 18/7 and they followed me out to the exterior where I started swearing. ****,****,Asshole was just some of the words they caught, and went straight uncensored, unbleeped, uncut onto that week's episode. Sure it made me look like a Trucker, but it was good to see that kinda thing fly.[/quote]
Yeah, I used to get the CBC when I lived in northern Ohio and I was shocked to hear some of the language they allow.

Oh Caaaanaadaaa, Oh Caaannaadaaaa...
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Jarred Land link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#251 date=07/07/04 at 12:35:58]

this is funny.. as in 1997 I was in front of a camera doing a reality show following people in the entertainment industry that happened to live in the same building (Sarah McLachlan, most of Network Records, some TV producers etc, and of course me. That was before reality tv, so it wasn't called reality at that time). It was primetime, im talking 7:00pm on CBC (think Canada's CBS) right after the news, a 30 minute show.

Anyways, In the show, some jackass cut my satelite dish cable because they thought it looked tacky on the roof of our heritage building. We had a camera crew following us 18/7 and they followed me out to the exterior where I started swearing. ****,****,Asshole was just some of the words they caught, and went straight uncensored, unbleeped, uncut onto that week's episode. Sure it made me look like a Trucker, but it was good to see that kinda thing fly.[/quote]

Profanity in Canada follows the European model rather than the US model, as do ownership of airways. In Europe, political speech is fairly heavily censored (compared to the US -- compared to Cuba it is free as a bird) and creative speech is relatively free of censorship. In the US, the bugaboo is over children and their reaction to TV, part of the liberal movement and efforts to control profanity in the media in the 60s and extending to the 80s (remember Tipper Gore?) so you could say the opposite is true. It all comes from the basic systems and how they started. I could do a dissertation, but the main issue is that profanity and sex is a no no on public spectrum in the US during the time children may be watching.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=240#253 date=07/07/04 at 12:37:10]
Ok, you guys are just weird. I don't know, were you winking and nudging them while you were asking them? I've never met anyone who prefered the electoral college. While they're there, why don't you ask them why it's better. I'm real curious on that one.[/quote]

They prefer it because they understand why it's there.

Alright buddy, I'll see you in court.
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Yeah, and then I'll see you in jail once you try. I'm licensed to argue in court. Are you?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=255#255 date=07/07/04 at 12:41:56]

I could do a dissertation, but the main issue is that profanity and sex is a no no on public spectrum in the US during the time children may be watching.  [/quote]

Yeah.. funny though how that hasn't seemed to cut down the profanity in the U.S, as examplified in this thread. Must be the open door for Violence.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=255#256 date=07/07/04 at 12:46:11]

They prefer it because they understand why it's there.


Yeah, and then I'll see you in jail once you try.  I'm licensed to argue in court.  Are you?[/quote]

Actualy, in South Carolina, so am I. Did you know here that misdemeanors are tried in front of a magistrate, without lawyers, and the arresting officer tries the case while the defendent speaks for themselves?

What is your area of practice?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Jarred Land link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=255#257 date=07/07/04 at 12:49:52]

Yeah.. funny though how that hasn't seemed to cut down the profanity in the U.S, as examplified in this thread. Must be the open door for Violence.[/quote]

No, there is no relationship between profanity on television and violence on the street that is clear cut -- this was first put forward in the 1960s actually as a feminist theory, that violence and profanity increases violence in society. It has since been relegated to the slim understand that some people who already have a propensity to violence may be more likely to act out that violence when they encounter it on TV (bad guys get worse, good guys are uneffected).

There is a relationship between violence an TV, including fast "MTV" style disjointed editing, and occurance of ADD in children if they watch very much TV before age 8. But the relationship is not linear ( violence on TV >>>> violence in person) but has several steps (violence on TV >>>> ADD and learning disorders >>>> failure at work / school >>>> compensating violence to make up for failures).

In fact, Canada actually has a higher violence rate than the US in all but one category (murder). The causal factors however are not how many times someone says **** on TV (oddly enough, nor is it gun control or poverty, none of which are predictors for violence per se). So, as far as freedoms go, saying **** is one that need not be lost. Of course, I am with Herman Wouk that cursing is a daily experience and a powerful tool if used sparingly. Your own cursing at the sattelite dish is more spectacular because you so rarely curse in day to day life.
 
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