Am I blind?

G

galt

Well-known member
Well I took my new DVX this morning and went to the beach. I shot some footage in each of the six factory scene settings, and am hard pressed to see much difference when pushed into Vegas, output to DVD (separate renders for 60i, 24p, and 30p clips), and watched on my 53" projection LCD. I can see some very slight stuttering in 24p mode when panning or zooming. But I do not understand why 24p is supposed to be superior to 60i. Switch between scene 5&6 were not noticable at all, but I did see a darker color shift when using the cine-like scene settings. over scene 1,3 & 4.

Is 24p going to look better when I get to facial closeups, lots of detail, etc? Or is it such a subtle difference that maybe I am missing it? I can't tell when TV movies or TV shows are shot in 24p (at least I have never noticed up until now). All in all, I thought the best picture was scene setting 1, in 60i. Maybe I have gotten too used to video? Should I trade my DVX for a gs400 and some cash?
 
if you can't tell when a TV show is shot in 24p, then you will not be able to tell with a DVX. I personally find it to be a huge difference (by the way there is no 30p preset). I can even tell in shows like "the shield" when they switch between 60i and 24p. If you don't like the look, or really can't tell, I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is that I can't stand dramas that are shot in 60i, personally it makes it look cheap and poorly filmed. I'm not sure what to tell you.
 
Each is just a different look.

60i looks like a news report
30p looks like a soap opra
24p looks like a movie

Faces won't look any better, if thier ugly they stay ugly. Motion just feels different.

Film someone running in all three modes pan with them as they run then,
Pan a scene in all three modes. You will notice a big difference in strobing and motion blur.

If you use the preset scene settings you will notice huge color differences as well. Color difference is because on the matrix and gamma settings and not the frame rate. I usually set my cam to normal normal for doing such tests.

Hope this helps.
 
I dont think the frame rate will change if you change the file setting while recording - you need to stop the recording, change the file setting and start recording again.

Just checking to make sure you actually performed the test you think you did - to me the difference is huge.
 
Actually, I think most, if not all soap operas are 60i. I have never seen a progressive scan soap opera, it would be too jarring for all the lonely houswives.
 
It is the sharp look I was referring to. All TV shows are 60i unless you are in areas that are 50i. I don't know of any place that is broadcasting progressive.
 
Samples

Samples

Before I can respond to a word description of something visual, I need to see for myself. Can you post short samples you got?

Cheers
 
ahh, well, that is a whole new ballgame, where shooting progressive, and broadcasting progressive are two totally different things.
Now, we could go the whole HD route, where a lot of stations broadcast progressive scan, however, I won't go there.
NTSC and PAL are interlaced based systems, however things that are shot in 24p or 30p will retain the look of 24p and 30p, even when broadcast in PAL or NTSC based systems. So a television station doesn't need to broadcast anything other than interlaced for the shows to still look different.
Shows like ER, and CSI are good examples of shows shot on film, at 24fps, and broadcast in interlaced. THese shows are markedly different from soap operas shot at 60i and boradcast in interlaced. Well, lets go one further, there are many shows now being shot with the DVX or other 24p capable cameras, and are broadcast interlaced, but retain their 24p look. While one could say that it has to do with sharpness, it really is not, because they are still video cameras, or HD cameras which are just like the cameras that shoot 60i soap operas. The difference, 24p cadence as scene through an interlaced television.
I bet you Galt, that you can tell the difference between CSI and a soap opera. Both have really good lighting, both have similar acting:) , but the look of the two shows are markedly different. WHy is this? 24p. If CSI was shot on film at 60fps and then broadcast as 60i, it would look much more like your daily soap opera than it would the nightime drama, and this is even when comparing film to video. It all has to do with FPS, and how are mind percieves these images.
 
smelni said:
I dont think the frame rate will change if you change the file setting while recording - you need to stop the recording, change the file setting and start recording again.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's something I found out also. The first time I saw 60i and 24p back to back from the Dvx the differences were really obvious.
 
Thanks gang.

Yes I remembered about the stop camera to change speed thing. When I looked at the captured clips, Vegas had correctly identifed some as 24p, some as 30p, and some as 60i. Now it is VERY possible that I did not have a project or render setting correct when assembling and rendering the progressive pieces.Is there a Vegas/DVDA 24p tutorial or checklist around somewhere? Actually I don't think I did anything different in DVDA, maybe I should have?

And Scharky, thanks for all that explanation. I am going to watch CSI and a soap today. I never watch either one.

Does the fact that I am watching DISH satellite affect what I am seeing? I record most everything on my DVR, would that impact the image? Could a DVD player setting affect what I saw on the DVD? Can I just view the DV tape on my TV and see correct 24p?

Well I have to go set my DVR to capture a soap and CSI. Then I will look at both. I wish they were on at same time, I could A/B between them. Thanks guys, maybe my eyes will open today. :)
 
Well with CSI and a soap, I could see big differences but am not sur eif it was 60i vs 24p or just fuzzy focus on the soaps. Part of problem is I don;t think I watch many 60i shows. And it is not always obvious like it probbaly should be, but I am noticing more differences now. I am going to shoot some more comparison footage this week with different subject matter and less changes except for 24p/60i. Assuming I am doing all of the rendering stuff correctly it may get better.

If i just show my DV footage directly to my TV (eliminating capture, Vegas and render from the equation) will I see true 24p on the screen? That might help...
 
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