Allister Chapman after S-Log tests "between 1.5 and 2 more stops"

Duke M.

Duke M.

Veteran
After testing S-Log:
"I estimate it gives you between 1.5 and 2 more stops to play with. Given that the F3 is already tested and shown to have around 11.5 stops with the cinegammas, this means that the F3 with S-Log is in the 13 to 13.5 stop range, very impressive indeed."

This reinforces what Timur said.

Article at:
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2011/06/pmw-f3-s-log-and-cinegamma-quick-look/

He also noted it worked on SxS, but recommended it only with a 10bit external recorder (or better.)
 
What interests me is that with even 13 stops of DR the F3 has more DR than the F35 at 11.3.

LatitudeTest.jpg

And it will handle the high end just as well as the F35 or a little better if it has 13.5 stops. With the low end being a LOT better.

OverUnderExposure.jpg

Not to mention at -63db the F3 is so noise free. Yet one site said the F35 was ~$200,000.
 
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although f35 held more in the highlights in the power window test compared to f3, that was f35 WITH 1000% log. f3 totally killed it in the underexposure scene, and with a 800% log, i'm really only expecting it to be second only to Alexa and Epic.
 
Sure without S-Log because the F35 is 6.5 stops over middle gray, while the F3 is currently only 4.3 stops over middle gray. At 5.8-6.3 stops over middle gray with S-Log the F3 will be right up there.

On the low end the F3 is two full stops lower even without S-Log. :)
 
Just so people who Tom and Duke are referencing the Zacuto "Great Camera Shootout 2011" video when talking about latitude and so on. It is worth watching, if not for anything else on confirming suspiciions about how to properly expose for the F3 and some interesting findings about other cameras, particularly, The Alexa and Red cameras. Even if you find Zacuto's marketing a bit much you should check it out.

You have to watch it from their website for the time being. Can't be seen directly from Vimeo.

http://www.zacuto.com/
 
It will be interesting to see the F3 stacked up against the Alexa (which to my mind is now the gold standard) with the S-log being employed. The things to watch for will be the yellow cast in the window highlights and of course retention of detail.

Based on the Sony footage that was available 6 months ago showing S-log footage before & after grading shots, I think we can expect the highlight retention to be relatively good but realistically not near the quality of the Alexa even when looking at the footage causually.

Hopefully we will have the quality of comparison testing between an S-logged F3 and an Alexa and Red that we have seen the Zacuto 2011 shootout.

My big takeaway from the shootout apart from the exposure findings between cameras but that the F3 really shone in midtone and shadow reproduction and yielded a fairly organic and sumptuous feel without the overstatement that you see in the Canon DSLR footage we've all seen. I think this is what drew many people to the F3 in the place when prerelease footage began to surface back in the fall.
 
I should have mentioned the SCCE and Zacuto. My apologies.

At 5.8-6.2 stops over middle gray the F3 still isn't going to be up to the 6.8 of the Alexa. But being between the F35 and Alexa is pretty heady company at any price much less say the price of the F3.
 
note to everyone here, when shooting with sLog, here is ther reason you have to shoot 10bit:

You now expose skin around 35 IRE on the exposure scale, 2 full stops under "normal" key. Notice how bright the Darks are? You can lower keep skin tones in there, and protect the living hell out of the highlights. but heres the gotcha, you have to grade the skin back up to the 50'sIRE in post for the image to look natural. This is where 10bit becomes handy, the 1024 gradation steps enables you to bring up the dark midtones with less risk of banding or artifacting.

Grading this back in 8bit will be "ok" for web deivery, but dangerous as hell for commercial, narrative or any critical work. sLog is ment for 10bit.
 
Duke M. said:
I should have mentioned the SCCE and Zacuto. My apologies.

At 5.8-6.2 stops over middle gray the F3 still isn't going to be up to the 6.8 of the Alexa. But being between the F35 and Alexa is pretty heady company at any price much less say the price of the F3.
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But dont forget, the F3 is so grainless, that you can cheat your middle grey lower in the scale, and grade it up without fear. Think of it as film. Film only has 4 stops below key, but 10 above. Shift your "middle grey" lower, and treat it like film exposure. The Alexa has noise, the F3 @0dB practically does not for all intents and purposes.

http://timurcivan.blogspot.com/2011/02/sony-f3-preliminary-tests.html

Read what Tom Wong, my DIT had to say. Keep in mind, at the time we were reading ISO by what the camera stated. I am gonna fix the exposure references in the article today.
 
Tim ,
This is very similar to what I suggested in another post. Alternatively raise gamma or raise the gain and expose lower thus adding highlght range.
Brought to you by the f3's low low noise.
 
TimurCivan said:
I am gonna fix the exposure references in the article today.
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You probably should have both sets of numbers maybe with what's shown on the camera in parentheses so other people looking at their camera can match the numbers.

This idea of shifting middle gray lower is very much what I was getting at in the other thread (about what the shoot out can teach us) and begs the question of the best way to shift the middle gray lower.

1) Expose so bright areas aren't blown, probably under exposing the middle, then lift the middle in post?

2) Shift the gamma? How?
 
Using the waveform or false color, you place your subjects in the correct range in the exposure curve, using lighting and filters.
 
Duke, Presumably you could lift the middle in camera by raising the gamma setting in the PP menus, or using a gamma setting that has the gamma already raised - i.e. cine 4 instead of cine 1.
 
There is no cine gamma in sLog. sLog IS the gama. Use lights.

sLog is a "big boy" toy. Gotta do everything the right way.
 
But S-Log is a toy we don't, or I don't, have yet.

Besides, I don't think throwing extra lights on the talent is the only or best solution with or without S-Log. You don't even need S-Log if you're going to throw enough light on the talent that.
 
Duke M. said:
You probably should have both sets of numbers maybe with what's shown on the camera in parentheses so other people looking at their camera can match the numbers.

This idea of shifting middle gray lower is very much what I was getting at in the other thread (about what the shoot out can teach us) and begs the question of the best way to shift the middle gray lower.

1) Expose so bright areas aren't blown, probably under exposing the middle, then lift the middle in post?

2) Shift the gamma? How?
Click to expand...

This is exactly what i've been doing in post with my AF100 to protect my highlights, and yeah, i can vouch for the 10 bit cause this is really the reason 8 bit isn't good enough.
 
Duke M. said:
But S-Log is a toy we don't, or I don't, have yet.

Besides, I don't think throwing extra lights on the talent is the only or best solution with or without S-Log. You don't even need S-Log if you're going to throw enough light on the talent that.
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Well man, do it however it makes sense to you. When you use it you will see. Its like lighting for film.
 
I wasn't referring to SLog but to the gammas in the F3. An Alexa rep talking about LogC on the Alexa however says he does it in camera by exposing for highlights but raising the gain to raise midpoints. interesting idea.
 
Lenilenapi said:
I wasn't referring to SLog but to the gammas in the F3. An Alexa rep talking about LogC on the Alexa however says he does it in camera by exposing for highlights but raising the gain to raise midpoints. interesting idea.
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It seems counter intuitive, but I tried some experiments with that. With F35+709 and Cine4 with level 12 I can reduce the difference between external sunlight and internal room light from 7 stops on the manual iris to 5 stops. Its not perfect, but its a step in the right direction.
 
Duke M. said:
What interests me is that with even 13 stops of DR the F3 has more DR than the F35 at 11.3.

View attachment 35908

And it will handle the high end just as well as the F35 or a little better if it has 13.5 stops. With the low end being a LOT better.

View attachment 35907

Not to mention at -63db the F3 is so noise free. Yet one site said the F35 was ~$200,000.
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This is utter nonsense - I have shot with both - F3 is great, but F35 is better in this regard. also, 5D does not have as much latitude as Red MX - this is also completely ludicrous.
 
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