AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

Noise

Noise

I'm wondering if I've got a dud camera. I took the dvx200 out on a wedding job and used it to shoot the ceremony and speeches, both low light but really with enough light that my Blackmagic Pocket Cinema camera wasn't struggling at all. I was shooting 8 bit V Log on highest gain, fully open, custom white balance, 1080p 25fps at 1/50. The noise in the footage was shocking. I'm mean depressingly jaw droppingly bad for what I thought would be a serious step up from my Canon XF200. I'm not going to post footage, whats the point. I'm not the best DP in the world but I can handle the basics pretty well. Enough to make a living and get rebooked regularly. I had to apply neat video on it with a noise reading of 28. It took almost a day to render out the noise free footage so that I could salvage the job. I must be either doing something very very wrong or it's a dud model, because the footage looks nothing like anything I've seen online.

Anyway, I upgraded and purchased an Atomos Ninja Assassin and did some test footage last night and today. Tried manual, plus auto. Even shooting outside in daylight at 4k 24fps 10 bit 422 in Vlog....there's still a crazy amount of noise. All the shadows and midtones are shimmering with snowy crapness.

I'll read Barry's book...again. Try some tweaks and then do a proper controlled test after the holidays and post the footage. But I'm not hopeful. I'm not entitled to return the camera at this stage and I'm still hopeful that this will still be any go to camera for outdoor shooting at weddings this summer. Indoors I can never see this camera cutting it. I presume if it's a dud camera, Panasonic will give me a new one with a sensor that doesn't produce a sea of snow in the shadows.
 
I don't see where you mention upgrading to the latest version firmware. You mention the word upgraded and Ninja in the same sentence so maybe you are referring to firmware. Have you tried the firmware upgrade yet?
 
Richard Speedie said:
Anyway, I upgraded and purchased an Atomos Ninja Assassin and did some test footage last night and today. Tried manual, plus auto. Even shooting outside in daylight at 4k 24fps 10 bit 422 in Vlog....there's still a crazy amount of noise. All the shadows and midtones are shimmering with snowy crapness.
Click to expand...

Is the noise present in non-V-Log footage?
 
Mike Harvey said:
Is the noise present in non-V-Log footage?
Click to expand...

I ask because noise reduction is not applied to V-Log in camera, and it's been stated here and elsewhere (including the review Gweillo66 posted just above) that this is the case. If you shoot in V-Log, you will need to do noise reduction in post. That is, by the way and to the best of my knowledge, something that is inherent in shooting in any Log or Raw format with any camera... I saw a mention of still needing to apply noise reduction to both cameras in a comparison I just read between the Arri Alexa and Red Mysterium.
 
Mike Harvey said:
I ask because noise reduction is not applied to V-Log in camera, and it's been stated here and elsewhere (including the review Gweillo66 posted just above) that this is the case. If you shoot in V-Log, you will need to do noise reduction in post. That is, by the way and to the best of my knowledge, something that is inherent in shooting in any Log or Raw format with any camera... I saw a mention of still needing to apply noise reduction to both cameras in a comparison I just read between the Arri Alexa and Red Mysterium.
Click to expand...

It's not the case with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera or Pocket Cinema Camera that I use. I shot both in log and never have to apply NR. And yes, the noise was also present, outside in daylight, using Barry's Scene 1 file.
 
In order to avoid noise the following recommendations may be helpful:
- Never use High Sens mode together with AGC , otherwise you will see noise like hell. High Sens only gives you a benefit in manual Gain and IRIS mode.
- Limit AGC to 21 dB or as far as possible to 18 dB.
- If you are not shooting in VLOG-L a flat Gamma (Cine Like D for instance) may also improve noise performance.
 
Richard Speedie! Welcome on the team!
Team, who live in the noise!
Yes, you must fight the noise-free image....very
Panasonic has freed the Red Devil
The problem is that the firmware does not deal with this problem
the company's engineers perform poorly
there is big trouble with their sight
 
DefX said:
In order to avoid noise the following recommendations may be helpful:
- Never use High Sens mode together with AGC , otherwise you will see noise like hell. High Sens only gives you a benefit in manual Gain and IRIS mode.
- Limit AGC to 21 dB or as far as possible to 18 dB.
- If you are not shooting in VLOG-L a flat Gamma (Cine Like D for instance) may also improve noise performance.
Click to expand...

Ok, so I'm shooting 10bit and fully manual so High Sens and AGC are not issues. I shoot at a max of 18db. I am shooting V Log but have tried all of Barry Green's scene files also. On a direct comparison with a Blackmagic Cinema Camera with a Sigma 1.8 18 - 35mm lens, there is no comparison. But I expect that a 1.8 lens will perform better than a 2.8. I think my thinking may have to be shifted.

This is a fixed lens video camera in the old mould. On a direct comparison with other cameras of the same ilk, this probably performs pretty well. I expected far more though. The problem is that I've been spoilt by using the BMCC and the noise free, highly dynamic, highly gradable footage that I get from it, isn't possible out of the DVX200. But the problem is that unless I bolt half a tonne of outboard gear to the BBMC, I can't get the flexibility I need at a wedding. The BBMC misses powerful zoom, IS, focus tracking and professional sound. I also can't use the BBMC outside...the screen is useless outside so you need an EVF (another €1K), there are no ND filters..you just can't be messing around with filters and lenses, and spending ages focusing when you're doing a wedding...the shot would be gone. So...I think the DVX200 will be the go to outdoor summer camera...but it's a bloody expensive solution for that. I'm €6000 in the hole so far and trying to make excuses.
 
Just thought id share my past 8 weeks shooting a TV series with the DVX200.
As many others i was highly disappointed to purchase a panasonic camera that normally performs (almost) perfect out of the box, only to find that the build in scene files were pretty much unusable. What it did do which i now really like is that it forced me to understand how a scene file is build. I managed to get 75% of he way myself and then when Barry's fantastic manual came out i managed to create a perfect scene file for what we shoot. We film a high end nature show in New Zealand and Australia...
So firstly, a huge thank you to Barry for creating a book that is made for real people out there in the field working with the DVX200 10 hours a day, it's just fantastic!

As we are in a PAL region i have created a scene file that i'd like to share with anyone who might be interested. We have shot 5 X 1 hour shows with this scene file now and our colourist is clapping his hands, so i must have done something right. Anyhow, here it is - enjoy:

Master detail -16
Detail coring 0
Skin tone detail off
V detail level 0
Knee Ape level 1
Chroma Level -20
Chroma phase 0
Matrix Norm2

Colour correction setting
R: sat-3 phase 0
Mg: sat -8 phase +6
Mg-BB: sat +12 phase +9
B-B-Cy: sat+7 phase -4
R-Mg: sat -4 phase 0
Mg-Mg-B: sat +11 phase +4
B: sat+35 phase 0
B-Cy-Cy: sat +11 phase -3
Cy: sat-11 phase -14
G: sat +14 phase -6
G-YI-YI: sat -23 phase +11
YI-YI-R: sat -10 phase +8
Cy-G: sat 0 phase -10
G-G-YI: sat -20 phase -3
YI: sat -5 phase +8
YI-R-R: sat -11 phase-4

Master Ped +5
Gamma Mode Cinelike D
Black Gamma 0
Black gamma range 3
Knee mode auto
Knee master point 93.0
Knee Master slope 85
DRS off
DRS effect 1
Auto iris level on
Auto iris level effect 0
V-log off
 
In case someone wants to try saltflyer's custom scene, here is a scene file with all of the scenes the same as the six original factory scenes except saltflyer's scene is in the SCN4 position. I haven't put it through its paces yet but I figured I would at least save everyone some time from going in and manually entering everything.
 

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Thanks saltflyer for sharing your scene file.
I like your settings and I think they are a really good starting point for grading in post.
Nevertheless for my taste I prefer to switch off Knee mode because it causes some unpleasant side effects (shift of white balance for IREs above Knee master point).
Maybe this can be fixed in one of the next firmware releases.
 
Thank you DeFX. I was a bit unsure about the Knee mode as well, but we did some testing and because of what we are shooting (and from reading Barry's manual (AUTO is best for completely uncontrollable shooting scenarios, such as outdoor sports or news coverage, where you simply may not have the time to keep track of the knee’s current settings)

It worked best for us on Auto, but in the perfect world i would agree with you to have it turned off.
 
Saltflyer, I see the blue color was increased very high in the colour correction settings
(sat + 35)
for me this color has the most trouble
I tried your settings
this will be the realy way to go
but grain it could be more less
THX
 
We found that we had to reduce magenta and red quite a bit and increase green and Blue a lot.
Must admit that we still have problems with blown out highlights, especially in peoples faces in direct sunlight. I'm struggling to find a solution to that problem. When we shot the nature series we did have any faces, so that wasn't a problem. But now when on to the next project, i need to find a way to reduce the blown out patches, not only in faces, but also around other small highlights like: Braking waves, glare on windows and so on. If anyone can give me an idea of what to tweak that would be much appreciated...
Thanks
 
saltflyer said:
We found that we had to reduce magenta and red quite a bit and increase green and Blue a lot.
Must admit that we still have problems with blown out highlights, especially in peoples faces in direct sunlight. I'm struggling to find a solution to that problem. When we shot the nature series we did have any faces, so that wasn't a problem. But now when on to the next project, i need to find a way to reduce the blown out patches, not only in faces, but also around other small highlights like: Braking waves, glare on windows and so on. If anyone can give me an idea of what to tweak that would be much appreciated...
Thanks
Click to expand...
Have you tried Barry's scene files? Using them seemed to get the highlights a little more in control for me but you really seem to have to mind your exposure a little more with the DVX200 than most cameras.
 
Yes, Barry's scene files were A LOT better than the ones Pan did, but we still required a much flatter image. The one i build was with Barry's scenefile 6 as a starting point and then it was just back and forth a million times to our colourist until happy. I still can't find a way to control those highlight spots better other than shooting V-log which would be ideal obviously. My problem is that our next big shoot is a 13x1hour fishing series which will be very hectic run'n gun shooting from a moving boat out at sea. I need to be able to adjust critical focus constantly and that's definitely much harder in V-log.
Thanks..
 
saltflyer said:
...
Must admit that we still have problems with blown out highlights, especially in peoples faces in direct sunlight. I'm struggling to find a solution to that problem...
Thanks
Click to expand...

Please try to switch completly off Knee mode and let me know whether you see an improvement.
 
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