AF100 and HPG 20

Melvin Harris

Melvin Harris

Black Flag Member
What would be the workflow when dealing with VFR stuff from the camera? Is it even possible to do it when the HPG20 records 1080/60i and the VFR stuff is in 24 or 30... just can't wrap my head around it.

I want AVC-Intra, but it seems weird with the HPG20 having no native recording formats...

Any suggestions?
 
I don't know how that would work. Not sure how the camera outputs SDI while shooting VFR. That's a question we'll probably not get an answer to for at least a couple of months.
 
Ok, I've got another question.

No one has addressed this thing, maybe because of price, maybe because of form factor, but the Panasonic people keep talking about it, Jan has mentioned it a couple of times... why hasn't any one else here? How would it stack up to the Ki Pro, Ninja, or Nanoflash for people who aren't remotely interested in Final Cut workflows? Or what about any developments on using codecs like Cineform to record to outside of the billion dollar Wafian thing and how that would stack up to AVC-Intra.

I'm really interested in AVC-Intra for this camera as you can tell, but I'm not Oliver Warbucks over here...
 
I was thinkin' about the same package -AF100 and HPG 20- but the main problem is that HPG 20 doesn't support 1080p and that makes it useless to me.

From HPG 20 official webpage «Recording and playback formats include 1080/60i, 1080/50i, 720/60p, 720/50p in AVC-Intra and DVCPRO HD; and 480/60i, 576/50i in DVCPRO50, DVCPRO and DV»

Also, i'm expecting that AF 100 sdi-out will be 8 bit only -hope i'm wrong!- and that will prevent to take full advantage of the 10bit AVC-intra HPG 20 recorder.
Please correct me if i'm misunderstanding.
 
pharpsied said:
No one has addressed this thing, maybe because of price, maybe because of form factor, but the Panasonic people keep talking about it, Jan has mentioned it a couple of times... why hasn't any one else here? How would it stack up to the Ki Pro, Ninja, or Nanoflash for people who aren't remotely interested in Final Cut workflows?
Click to expand...
The HPG20 is a different device. It's a recorder, yes, but it's also a whole lot more.

It records to a codec that is superior to the Nano, and arguably on par or superior to the Ki Pro. It's 10-bit 4:2:2 AVC-Intra. However, it's also a whole lot more than a recorder, and (accordingly) it's more expensive.

If someone already has an established P2 workflow and other P2 camcorders, and can make room for an HPG20, I would think it would be quite appealing as a bridge product to bring the quality of the AF100's recordings up substantially and also to integrate it into the existing P2 system. AVCI-100 is an excellent codec, and P2 is the most reliable/robust recording medium ever made.

However, as you said, price is an issue; with a Ki Pro Mini at $2,000 it becomes hard to look at a $5,000+ HPG20 as a direct competitor FOR A RECORDER. But as said before, the HPG20 does a whole lot more than just record, including acting as a playback deck, a director's monitor, a waveform monitor/vectorscope, an offloading device, a metadata entry device, and something that can even play back clips that have already been offloaded to hard drives. It can copy the contents of its P2 cards onto external hard drives, or it can copy clips back from hard drives onto P2 cards, or it can play clips directly from hard drives.

On the downside, it doesn't support 1080/24pSf, so any recording you did would involve your 24p being embedded within 60i. The Nano can record 24pSf; not sure about the Ki Pro.

And, as has been said, one of the capabilities of AVC-Intra would go underexploited -- AVCI records 10 bits, and the AF100 is going to output 8 bits, so that extra layer of goodness that AVCI could do will be unused.

And it's a lot bigger. A Ki Pro is bigger than a nano, but is still reasonably small enough that I could see mounting it to the side of the camera. The AF100's handgrip panel is removable, and I would bet dimes to doughnuts that folks will make mounting brackets that let you bolt both of those recorders right to the side of the AF100. That wouldn't happen with the HPG20, as it's a much bigger device.
 
The HPG20 would be pretty much useless....This camera outputs an 8 bit image from a 1920*1080 area.The recorder with its 4:2:2, 10 bit recording would be simply an overkill.
 
It would be far from useless; it's 4:2:2 and AVCI compression. I would agree that it could be called overkill, but I certainly wouldn't call it useless!
 
I belive the AF100 out puts a uncompressed 8 bit 4:2:2 1920 by 1080 image through the SDI port,
the HPG20 records a 4:2:2 AVCI image in 10 bit but as good as it is (which is Damn good) AVCI is still compressed so having 2 extra bits to record the AVCI should be a noticeable better image than the highly compressed AVCHDcam that the AF100 records on the SD cards. for those of us with a investment in P2 cards the HPG20 maybe the way to go.
 
overkill is relative, depending on how much is good enough for you. Oversampling is a common practice, gaining 4:2:2 out of it is def a major benefit, but nothing the nano or ki can't do. as for 10 bit recording from a 8 bit source, it's the same principle has converting to 10 bit from your dslr sources among other 8 bit sources. That over sample has proven to help, even if it's not by leaps and bounds, but allows for a smoother grading process (yes it stretches your 255 colors out, but it's proven than while stretching it to 10 bit, you gain more graduations in what color you do have, so you can make more subtle changes if you need it)

and still gives it mathematical wiggle room to take generational loss better, especially when your starting point is at a higher bitrate/bit depth from a uncompressed stream. Converting the avchd afterwards causes a generational loss right off the bat already. By bypassing the initial transcode, you gain 1 more generation in quality. Whether you can visually see it, that's not the concern, the concern is always trying to keep the generations as pure as possible. Once it goes through the vigors of vfx and other aspects of post you might start seeing 6+ passes on it, saving one can be a pretty big deal.

the hpg20 feel like a great resource for their ENG division, but with built in scopes in the camera, and a lot of external monitors having the same tools. for this crowd, nano and ki pro should be best bet, and most likely the ninja too.

(isn't the hpg 20 the size of a small laptop?)
 
xmephestox said:
(isn't the hpg 20 the size of a small laptop?)
Click to expand...

Is more like the size of a large brick, you can compare it to the body of an HPX170 without lens hood and top handle. I guess it weights 1,1kg without battery

Here more infos: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...GroupId=34402&surfModel=AG-HPG20&displayTab=O

It's certainly useful for anything but indie filmmaking because of its lack of native 1080p support.:angry:
And since AF100 is targeted primarily to filmmakers the AF100-HPG20 combo is -my opinion- a mere nonsense.
 
Well, is the pulldown process any more complicated than it is for any other codec in various NLEs? And if you use a transcoding workflow (Cineform, etc.), aren't any of the recorders nonsensical if you don't use what the recorder uses? I would like a recorder, more specifically, I would like to record to AVC-Intra, but if I am "stuck" transcoding to Cineform I think I'll be ok... but that's me.
 
My apologies if i've offended you, it was not my intention.

My thought is that the AF100 is primarily intended as a tool for indie digital cinema that means -for me- progressive frame recording at 24fps
The HPG20 recording specification seems more video oriented than cinema-style oriented due the lack of 1080p
If your primary need is to record AVC-Intra i suggest to buy an HPX370 instead of an AF100+HPG20 combo.
 
Oh, no, no no no no... I wasn't offended at all. This forum gives you thick skin ;)
No, I was just inquiring about your comments which had very salient points. I am fine with the AVCHD workflow because I transcode to Cineform, but HD-SDI recording is enticing. I am just trying to weigh all the options and I didn't see the HPG20 explored as one of them.

Your points were golden man, no worries. I'm easy.
 
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