AF-100 Wishlist/Suggestion Discussion Thread

[Tzedekh]

First, I don't know that anyone ever said that it's coming without a lens.

I've seen the ~$6K price tag mentioned as being without a lens.

Second, look at the price difference between the HMC150 and HPX170. They're identical save for the format/media... and the fact that the HPX170 has HD-SDI.

The prices I've seen quoted for the HPX170 are about $1,000 to $1,200 more than those of the HMC150, and the former has DVCPro HD, P2, and HD-SDI. If what's been said in this thread is true -- that P2 alone would add $2K to the AF-100's price -- then the 170's either too cheap, or the 150's too expensive.

Look at the Canon XH-A1 and -G1 for that matter, they're completely identical save for the HD-SDI and they're roughly the same price difference.

OK, maybe you've got me there.

And the GH1's price is irrelevant because it's apples and Volkswagens. The GH1 isn't coming with all the other features (like XLR sockets).

Not irrelevant at all. If indeed it's the same image sensor, then a relatively inexpensive dSLR with it means that the chip itself isn't too expensive to use in a consumer camera. So we know the cost of the chip itself alone isn't almost doubling the cost of the HMC150 to get the AF-100.

And honestly... it's their camera, they can sell it for whatever the heck they want and be totally justified doing it. No one is pointing a gun to your head saying you have to buy it. It's the free market, if you don't like it, buy the GH1 or GH2 when it comes out, or buy an HMC150. Or the Sony equivalent. Or a Scarlett.

You people are being too defensive. I never said Panasonic couldn't charge whatever they want. But when you comparison shop between two items --especially two that are manufactured by the same company and that have many features in common -- if there's a substantial price difference between them, don't you ask why?

 

[dadoboy]

Can we keep this thread about features and specs, and not pricing?
If people want to haggle and speculate about the price, start a different thread. The haggling is incredibly annoying to read. We're not at a bazaar or flea market.

Panasonic will price the camera according to what the market will bear and what the competition has out there. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Tzedekh]

hey its not even out yet and your criticizing it already. if you dont like the price dont buy it. no need to be rude

If that's directed at me, I didn't criticize the camera. As a consumer, I have every right to question the price. It's not at all rude to do so. And any company knows that no one has to buy their products, so the burden is generally on them to do a cost-benefit justification. And "it comes out of the broadcast division" doesn't really count.

 

[Barry_Green]

It just seems like a step backwards to go from working in 100mb DVCPROHD to 24mb AVVCAM. I've worked with 5D and 7D footage before, and while it "looks awesome" at first glance, I just found it hard to work with. I tend to do a lot of effects in post and the h.264 just wasn't cutting it. Transcoding footage to prores is not like re-wrapping mxf files.

Well, don't compare AVCCAM with a Canon 7D's h.264. They're very very different. The AVCCAM recording should be much more comparable to DVCPRO-HD, with the exception that it's 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2. But it will still take a robust computer, or a graphics-card-accelerated NLE (such as Premiere Pro CS5) or one with a strong AVCHD acceleration engine (such as EDIUS 5.5).

 

[Mike Harvey]

I've seen the ~$6K price tag mentioned as being without a lens.

That's the MSRP. Plus, I've not seen where it won't come with a lens, or where you got that info. Not denying it, but I have a hard time seeing them not include a kit lens, when virtually every other camera Panasonic Broadcast sells comes with one. Street price will probably be about $5,200... which was roughly the same for the HPX170 when it was first released. Speaking of which...

The prices I've seen quoted for the HPX170 are about $1,000 to $1,200 more than those of the HMC150, and the former has DVCPro HD, P2, and HD-SDI. If what's been said in this thread is true -- that P2 alone would add $2K to the AF-100's price -- then the 170's either too cheap, or the 150's too expensive.

Then prices must have come down, because when the HMC and HPX were first released, it was about an $1,600 - $2k difference.

Not irrelevant at all. If indeed it's the same image sensor, then a relatively inexpensive dSLR with it means that the chip itself isn't too expensive to use in a consumer camera. So we know the cost of the chip itself alone isn't almost doubling the cost of the HMC150 to get the AF-100.

But it's not the exact same... they've said it's going to be retooled for video (which involves labor, and I'm sure engineers aren't cheap). Plus, there are other things that the GH1 won't have... like real audio connections and the associated electronics, one would hope waveform/vectorscope, zebras... a lot of those sorts of things.

You people are being too defensive. I never said Panasonic couldn't charge whatever they want. But when you comparison shop between two items --especially two that are manufactured by the same company and that have many features in common -- if there's a substantial price difference between them, don't you ask why?

Not defensive, it's just irritating constantly reading people's comments demanding Panasonic justify the price. They don't have to. Just because it's not worth that much too you doesn't mean it's not worth that much to someone else. And if it's worth that much to someone else and they can turn more of a profit than selling at a lower price with slightly higher volume then more power to them.

Back in the 80's and early 90's when I was a little kid, one of my best friend's dad was a Porsche mechanic. When he would order new Porsche parts from the manufacturer, what he would get had Volkswagon labels on them. Meaning your average Jetta shared an awful lot of the same parts as a 911. So how can they justify charging so much more for a Porsche when it didn't cost that much more than a Jetta in terms of parts?

Because the value of a car (or camera) is more than just the sum of the parts that went into it.

 

[Starshine Video]

I've seen the ~$6K price tag mentioned as being without a lens.


The prices I've seen quoted for the HPX170 are about $1,000 to $1,200 more than those of the HMC150, and the former has DVCPro HD, P2, and HD-SDI. If what's been said in this thread is true -- that P2 alone would add $2K to the AF-100's price -- then the 170's either too cheap, or the 150's too expensive.


OK, maybe you've got me there.


Not irrelevant at all. If indeed it's the same image sensor, then a relatively inexpensive dSLR with it means that the chip itself isn't too expensive to use in a consumer camera. So we know the cost of the chip itself alone isn't almost doubling the cost of the HMC150 to get the AF-100.


You people are being too defensive. I never said Panasonic couldn't charge whatever they want. But when you comparison shop between two items --especially two that are manufactured by the same company and that have many features in common -- if there's a substantial price difference between them, don't you ask why?

Why? Two Reasons, One the AF-100 is going to appeal to a much smaller demographic than the HMC150 and as such they need to have larger margins to maintain profit for the R&D that is needed for this camera. And Two, because they can. People like me are going to line up around the freaking block to buy this thing.

 

[Barry_Green]

If that's directed at me, I didn't criticize the camera. As a consumer, I have every right to question the price. It's not at all rude to do so. And any company knows that no one has to buy their products, so the burden is generally on them to do a cost-benefit justification. And "it comes out of the broadcast division" doesn't really count.

Coming out of the "broadcast division" means a lot of things -- not the least of which is a three-year warranty. Plus a chip and processing that were designed for video. Plus variable frame rates, proper audio support, proper monitoring, proper recording format, and -- yeah, get this -- an actual headphone jack! If none of those things matter to you, then this product is not aimed at you.

It is designed by the broadcast division, for professional users. It is not a consumer DSLR, nor will it be priced to compete with one. They might sell a thousand GH1s for every AF100 they sell. If someone wants the cheapest product, I heartily recommend they go with the GH1. If someone wants a product that's designed for the professional video shooter, from the ground up, then they should take a good long look at the AF100.

And it will be priced at whatever they think it should be priced at. And that has NOTHING to do with what the GH1's chip costs. It has to do with R&D, marketing, advertising, support, and recognizing that it's going to sell in far fewer quantities than a $1,000 DSLR.

If you do not like the price of the unit, do not buy it. Simple. End. Full stop. If enough people do like what they're getting, at the price that's being asked, then the product will be a success in the marketplace. If not enough people like what they're getting for the price that's being asked, they won't buy it -- and it will be either repriced, or withdrawn from the market. Endless complaining and comparing it to a consumer DSLR are utterly pointless because those things will not accomplish anything useful.

Either the company can build and sell this thing at a profit that they find appealing to them, or they won't bother. That's all there is to it.

 

[Ben_B]

Coming out of the "broadcast division" means a lot of things -- not the least of which is a three-year warranty. Plus a chip and processing that were designed for video. Plus variable frame rates, proper audio support, proper monitoring, proper recording format, and -- yeah, get this -- an actual headphone jack! If none of those things matter to you, then this product is not aimed at you.

It is designed by the broadcast division, for professional users. It is not a consumer DSLR, nor will it be priced to compete with one. They might sell a thousand GH1s for every AF100 they sell. If someone wants the cheapest product, I heartily recommend they go with the GH1. If someone wants a product that's designed for the professional video shooter, from the ground up, then they should take a good long look at the AF100.

And it will be priced at whatever they think it should be priced at. And that has NOTHING to do with what the GH1's chip costs. It has to do with R&D, marketing, advertising, support, and recognizing that it's going to sell in far fewer quantities than a $1,000 DSLR.

If you do not like the price of the unit, do not buy it. Simple. End. Full stop. If enough people do like what they're getting, at the price that's being asked, then the product will be a success in the marketplace. If not enough people like what they're getting for the price that's being asked, they won't buy it -- and it will be either repriced, or withdrawn from the market. Endless complaining and comparing it to a consumer DSLR are utterly pointless because those things will not accomplish anything useful.

Either the company can build and sell this thing at a profit that they find appealing to them, or they won't bother. That's all there is to it.

Barry I thought they did 5-year warranties on purely solid-state products? Am I off-base on this? I seem to remember the HVX was 3-year cause of the mini dv and the others were 5....anyway thankfully I've never had to worry about this because everything is so damn well made and I'm careful

It's up to the company to do the market research to determine the price....if market research post announcement indicates that interest would be stronger in the camera if the price was lower to the point where they would make more money with the camera priced lower then they will lower the price. So if anyone ever gets a phone call or your company gets a survey or if you participate in a focus group, go ahead and tell them (lie through your teeth for the rest of us if you have to!) that you would by 10 if they were $4,000

 

[dcloud]

avccam 3years... p2cams 5 years

 

[Otis Grapsas]

The prices I've seen quoted for the HPX170 are about $1,000 to $1,200 more than those of the HMC150, and the former has DVCPro HD, P2, and HD-SDI. If what's been said in this thread is true -- that P2 alone would add $2K to the AF-100's price -- then the 170's either too cheap, or the 150's too expensive.

P2 comes with extra cost in P2 media. 2 hours of recording cost an extra $1600 vs SDHC.

$2600 to $2800 extra on a $5,500 retail is a lot and without adding a P2 reading device. $8100 to $8300 without lenses.

And that's 1280x1080 DVCPROHD100. AVC-Intra would add a lot more. The least expensive 1/3" AVC intra camera is $7600 (HPX300). An ACV-Intra board upgrade is $3200 for the HPX2000. I can't see AVC-Intra added for less than $2,000.

Doubling the price of the camcorder puts it in an entirely different price range and out of reach for most people. $11,000 for a basic camera/media/batteries package without lenses.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry I thought they did 5-year warranties on purely solid-state products? Am I off-base on this?

5 years on P2 products.
3 years on AVCCAM products.

HVX was one year because of the tape drive, but all other P2 products are 5 years.

 

[ripupthehwy]

Do both

Do both

Okay, so Panny doesn't want to offer P2 on this camera just so they can keep the price down. That's fine, but I DO hope (or wish) they would offer a second model with P2. I think I'm an example of how they are only hurting their own market: I own an HVX 200. Last month I was looking into buying 2 new, larger P2 Cards. I want this camera, and I'm gonna get it. But now since I hear it's not gonna have P2 I cancelled my order for the cards. So it seems they are drawing a line in the sand and saying "okay, from now on, P2 is only for the higher end professional"

 

[Bucknfl]

It's interesting that both the AF-100 and the new panasonic 3D camera will be using SD cards and not P2.

 

[dcloud]

if you guys havent read it before, they're planning a p2 version for the 3d camera.. it wont be unlikely if they release a p2 version of the af100 afterwards. guys try to stay positive. Im sure Panny wont let us down

 

[mikkowilson]

Here's one I thought of for the list:

A broadcast industry standard "lens" connector ... to allow the camera to communicate with standard broadcast lenses (for start/stop & iris controls) when attached.

- Mikko

 

[Barry_Green]

Problem with that idea is that there's no broadcast lenses that would cover the chip. Wouldn't cover a fourth of the chip.

 

[evandroc]

Okay, so Panny doesn't want to offer P2 on this camera just so they can keep the price down. That's fine, but I DO hope (or wish) they would offer a second model with P2. I think I'm an example of how they are only hurting their own market: I own an HVX 200. Last month I was looking into buying 2 new, larger P2 Cards. I want this camera, and I'm gonna get it. But now since I hear it's not gonna have P2 I cancelled my order for the cards. So it seems they are drawing a line in the sand and saying "okay, from now on, P2 is only for the higher end professional"

seems like people who love their HVX200 (like me) were waiting for the AF100 to be the next generation HVX, and we are just sorry it will not be...

 

[Barry_Green]

If P2 is the deciding factor for you, then the AF100 won't be the next HVX, it'll be the next HMC150. Except more than that, because it'll have the variable frame rates and everything that the HVX has.

So keep lobbying Panasonic separately to make an AF150 that's based on P2. The AF100 will not be that unit.

 

[John Caballero]

seems like people who love their HVX200 (like me) were waiting for the AF100 to be the next generation HVX, and we are just sorry it will not be...

I love my HVX 200 and my GH1 and I am 100% sure that I will love the AF100 even more. Can't wait to get one.

 

[gandalfrodo]

Servo zoom, motor zoom, motorized zoom, whatever you call it I want the ability to switch between manual and servo zoom controls on the factory lens just like on the HVX200/HMC150/etc.